You probably remember that long time ago, when we used to have singles on vinyl, records had on side 1 the hit of the band, and on the other side we usually got those songs the band didn’t really knew what to do with, so they put it on side B. And no one ever played those “side B” songs as usually they were pretty bad.

I think B (Belgium) had decided to take the B side approach when it comes to democracy. After reading THIS (The Flemish Prime Minister, Yves Leterme (Christian democrat), has admitted that his party has already reached agreement with the liberals and the socialists on who will administer many municipalities after the election), you begin to realize why some people vote for Vlaams Belang – as they are the only party who didn’t strike a deal.


The concept in democracy was supposed to be that the people choose someone to be accountant for their deeds. If the whole political pie is being cut prior to election what reason in the world would a politician do any effort to fulfill the wishes of his constituency? He has a promised position – he just changes seats from time to time. Why need politicians then? Why waste money on elections? Just give civil cervice the right to take over the position of politicians - for good.








From the news
PM admits deals in municipalities
Tue 29/08/06 - The Flemish Prime Minister, Yves Leterme (Christian democrat), has admitted that his party has already reached agreement with the liberals and the socialists on who will administer many municipalities after the election.

ocal elections are being held across Belgium on October 8th.

In many cases several parties will have to join forces to reach a majority on the local council.

Mr Leterme has now signalled that in many places deals have already been struck ahead of the poll.

Speaking in the weekly Humo the Flemish Prime Minister said that agreements had often been reached with national figureheads of the liberal and socialist parties.

Thwarting the Vlaams Belang

Mr Leterme stated that the agreements are intended to prevent local parties from striking a deal with the far right Vlaams Belang.

Until now all political parties have agreed not to co-operate with this party.

The Flemish PM says that Christian democrat councillors who make agreements with the Vlaams Belang are placing themselves outside the party.

That coalition agreements are made before the elections is nothing out of the ordinary, but it is highly unusual for a figure of Mr Leterme's calibre to draw attention to this phenomenon before voters have their say.

He just comes clear with what every-one knows has been happening everywhere for decades... besides... it would be sloppy organisation for them not to work out some scenarioes based on likely outcomes.

Anyhoos... couldn't care less... gemeenteverkiezingen are about dustbin collection.

do you really think that given the chance (vlaams blok)would be at resonable in the execution of thier policies,they are nothing else but biggots and unashamed racists,if you watched de zevende dag recently thier representative Filip De Winter could not even hold a perfectly normal conversation with an other guest on the programe when asked a particularly well thouhgt out question,he baulked and after ranting & raving over a completely unconected matter,he then tore of his microphone and stormed out of the studio I will remind you this was live television and he knew it full well.
How on earth can he even think that any sane person would even consider letting a hot head such as he really represent them,he and indeed all vlaams belang members are riding on a wave of discontent amongst flemish speaking people,they are tring desparately to sell the idea that an independant vlanderen is actually a viable proposition,which if you know even the basic ideas of economics as they are in Belgium today then you are almost forced to admit that it is a rediculous idea founded on some romantic idea of the Nirvana that could be.
Of course we have forgotter one very important thing the make up of the current political system nothing less than a fragile coalition which survives on a month to month basis with horse tradind required to pass even the simplest of new legislation ,and in some cases local and regional governments have more power than the federal because the latter is so thin on the ground and there is a general concensus,that even the prime minister has to tread very carefully when dealing with people like leterme and indeed elio de ruppo who has used his socialist Party in Wallonie to infiltrato flemish politics since making himself god almighty mayor ,president of the party,and last but not least minister president,never before has one man enjoyed somuch unopposed power.
So in short I would saydo not let yourself be influenced by the shallow mutterings of so called polititions who have to hide thier real aims ,and once they are caught out just change the name of the party so as to allow themselves to just carry on as if nothing had happened,look at the website is evokes nothing else but racial hatred masked in a broad nationalistic base is so transparent it is sickening,ask them a question about thier policies like health& education or defence ,nothing it is nothing more than a wobbly house of cards with no foundation in reality ,they draw support from people who are frightened to go outside after 8 pm in fear of thier lives and if you look closely this fear has been fuelled by the people who promise to provide a solution to the problem.
I myself am a proud Scotsman and proud to be ,but I would never vote for the SNP it would simply be chaos and simple minded to think that (our)oil revenues would be enough to sustain a modern economy without help from Blair and his cretinous government,so it maybe is a good job for all of us that you are not Belgian so you vote is only worth putting in the bins that you can decide who empties.

grandad, I think this is the real problem, that people don't really know how capable or incapable those vlaams guys are. and as such many gives them the benefit of the doubt. I agree that this is a very bad way to choose on how you vote, but that's the human nature.

At the end result I would love to see those guys try to even do 10% of what they claim - after all either they are full of it and people will kick them out really fast, or more likely they will find out that being in power does not mean you can do what you claimed for years with slogans - life is not a slogan it's about compromises.

What kind of bollocksed-up logic is this? Consider the following statements.

'If I were a white South African in 1974, I would have voted for the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging'

'If I were a German in 1932, I would have voted for Adolf Hitler as Chancellor'

Why on earth would any person, Belgian or otherwise, vote for a party which constitutes the legislation-pushing limit of right-wing bigotry and racism? This is Europe 2006, not Europe 1936. Next you'll be suggesting that children should be banned from speaking their native language in school playgrounds, retreading the misguided precedents of the Welsh Not and 'symbole' or 'vache' in Brittany.

Oh dear, it's already happening in Merchtem!

In Flanders extreme nationalism has managed to reach a level of societal/ballotbox acceptability to rival that of the National Socialists in the 1934 Reichstag elections. Hitler's opponents used the 'give him enough rope' argument too.

Quote:

What kind of bollocksed-up logic is this? Consider the following statements.

'If I were a white South African in 1974, I would have voted for the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging'

'If I were a German in 1932, I would have voted for Adolf Hitler as Chancellor'


Why on earth would any person, Belgian or otherwise, vote for a party which constitutes the legislation-pushing limit of right-wing bigotry and racism? This is Europe 2006, not Europe 1936. Next you'll be suggesting that children should be banned from speaking their native language in school playgrounds, retreading the misguided precedents of the Welsh Not and 'symbole' or 'vache' in Brittany.

Oh dear, it's already happening in Merchtem!

In Flanders extreme nationalism has managed to reach a level of societal/ballotbox acceptability to rival that of the National Socialists in the 1934 Reichstag elections. Hitler's opponents used the 'give him enough rope' argument too.

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Hysterics won't go a long way either...

"Next you'll be suggesting that children should be banned from speaking their native language in school playgrounds"

Like happened to my father and so many up to his generation in Flanders?

The main problem with unsavoury events such as in Merchtem is Flemish people feel they have no reason to trust French speaking people when it comes to linguistic rights... give them a bilingual zone and they'll end up exterminating every trace of the original language/culture. Sit down and negotiate a border and they'll keep questioning it at every instance.

Have people like Di Rupo go on record saying "Flanders is Flanders, we're not gonna cut into their territory and we will not block them when it comes to languages courses for immigrants on their soil" and things would lighten up...

All we have now is the memory of how we've been treated in the past and the notion it could happen again.

So yes... wanting children in Flemish schools in Flanders to speak Dutch is not that quaint... trying to impose it is probably not that smart, but maybe the goofballs who start phoning English, French and Spanish newspapers could tell about what happened to Flemish children in Flanders a generation ago when they dared speak their mother tongue... and maybe they could mention the school is Flemish ...

I can tell you my father had to read out his "lettre de nouvel an" in French. he didn't understand it, neither did his parents, but at least it had nothing to do with his mother tongue.

That's where we are coming from and we managed to get some autonomy for ourselves without resorting to violence and that's probably what we should be most proud of.

Franstaligen blijven zich kanten tegen
And by radicalizing, I mean convincing them that Belgium should be done away with as soon as possible.

We can have no say in which immigrants we let in, we had this "snel-Belg-wet" that doesn't require any proof of linguistic prowess/check-up of criminal past/... and to top it of, we're not even allowed to send immigrants who don't speak Dutch, but who claim social housing benefits in Flanders to a 120-hour language course, free of charge and even without a final test...

this is mindboggling. All we are allowed to do is finance this socialist freakshow.



V
laamse wooncode

De Franstaligen blijven zich kanten tegen de nieuwe Vlaamse wooncode. Een delegatie van het Vlaams parlement en vertegenwoordigers van het Waals parlement en het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap konden maandag op een informele vergadering in de Senaat geen vergelijk vinden. De bal ligt nu in het kamp van de Senaat en wellicht nadien het overlegcomité van de verschillende regeringen.

De Vlaamse regering wijzigde enkele maanden geleden de Vlaamse wooncode. Opvallendste wijziging is de invoering van een taalbereidheidsvereiste voor mensen die in Vlaanderen een sociale woning willen. Dat houdt in dat een Nederlandsonkundige huurder bereid moet zijn Nederlands te leren. De Franstaligen vinden dat de taalvereiste indruist tegen de grondwet. Zowel het Waals parlement als het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap riepen tot twee keer toe een belangenconflict in, waardoor de goedkeuring van het Vlaamse plan op de lange baan wordt geschoven. De informele verzoeningsvergadering maandag leverde niets op. Iedereen bleef bij zijn standpunt.
(Belga 18:47)

Phlegmy - hysterics sometimes serve a purpose.

It is easy in Flanders to forget that what locals feel might not be so palatable from the outside.

Insiders might find it perfectly OK for the largest local political party to gain popularity with extreme right policies based around harrassing and marginalising immigrants, enabling tax revenues to be earmarked for one linguistic group to the detriment of another, establishing monolingual language policies in what historically has been a polyglot society, and dividing an already-small nation state to favour a balkan-sized, highly polluted, fast-ageing and densely-populated conurbation on its northern side.

To outsiders, Flanders' placing of these things at the top of the political agenda suggests something more sinister. Perhaps that 1940s shortsightedness and xenophobia -- the kind associated with jackboots, jodphurs and establishing a monolithic germanic culture -- was never really consigned to the dustbin in Flanders, but was simply placed on the back shelf to be dusted off and revived in less virulent party-political form by the VB.

And if such statements are enough to radicalise Flemings, sorry. Any newly-radicalised Flemings are invited to swallow some nitrous oxide, take up yoga and engage in much needed self-examination and self-ridicule. And if gas cannot make them laugh, perhaps it is time to jump into the viking longboat to establish that Nordic Christian colony after all.

Seriouly, I'd actually argue that Flemings benefit from constant reminders that certain aspects of their behaviour do not show off Flanders in the best light. Things like casual racism, agitprop posters in immigrant areas reading 'baas in eigen land' and 'veiligheid eerst', complaints by mayors about immigrant youths just hanging around or 'too many pitta bars/phone shops', not to mention the general demonisation of francophones as lackeys, spongers and, worse, 'sossen'. And we need not mention teenage psychos with strong links to the VB just shooting immigrants in Antwerp.

So why is it that Flemings are keen to establish a Flemish identity negatively - that is, in opposition to outsiders, as opposed to positively? Why not focus on what is unique and attractive about Flanders? When will Flanders learn to love itself and not just hate others?

What I never quite understood when I lived in Flanders was that there existed a populous yet silent contingent of liberals and moderates -- hey, even francophiles and... an endangered species... Flanders-born francophones. However, they all seemed unwilling or afraid to satirise the stupidity of their right-wing compatriots. The fact that a party like the VB obtains a third of votes is plain daft, and perfect evidence that an electorate which is obliged to vote can be easily duped by cheap sloganeering and the voices of hatred.
More unsavoury is that many of the moderate Flemish nationalists have gone so far as to assimilate ugly and ugly-oid ideas into their manifestos and rhetoric.

While many are ashamed to admit it, every Fleming has a VB supporter in their family. Yet not once in eight years there did I see anyone getting ribbed for their daft beliefs at a wedding or barbecue. Surely some delinquent teenage cousin could be bribed to spill ice-cream, bavarois or stoofvlees down the shirt of the nearest family bigot. It would certainly make modern Flemish weddings more bearable and less funerary.

Next time I'm at a wedding in Flanders, I'm starting a food fight.

What I still find both confusing and amusing is that, on the whole, Flanders attempts to portray itself as 'strak modern', stylish, business-minded, outward-looking, libertarian and forward-thinking community. Yet it also does little about its political anachronisms, parochialism, racism, francophobia, linguistic interventionism and near-absence of countercultural media.

Many Flemings will cite the precise percentage of Dutch speakers in Brussels in, say, 1783, without accepting that things might have changed since the days when prissed-up Flemish dandies minced around the Grote Markt in wigs, doublets and cuffs of mechlin lace.

Could we agree that a person might be able to live in and enrich Flanders without ever speaking a word of Dutch? Pro-immigration arguments -- provision of professional skills, intellectual capital, new ideas, entrepreneurship, children to renew the workforce, hard work, access to global markets... or just the kind of happy, positive attitude to others which is so often lacking in static, ethnocentric communities -- largely fall on deaf ears.

Moreover, while the rest of the world can see what is unique and endearing about Flanders, Flanders seems to be intent on a botched reinvention of itself based on ephemeral pride in TV sequencing technology, rockstars singing in pidgin English and careers involving MBAs.

Why not be proud of the real you? Waiters rotating wide-rimmed beerglasses to show off the brand; gilt guildhouses on cobbled market squares, soundtracked by tinkling carillons, scented by stagnant canals, pigeon lime and waffles; heavy, flamboyant furniture subsiding over decades into oak floors that protest the weight of sculpted caryatids, jostling cherubs, and atalantes with bongo bosoms and middleweight jaws; hand-made pralines providing the kind of ecstatic hit to the tongue last experienced when Peter Sellers combined amyl nitrates, a newlywed young Britt Ekland and cardiac arrest; crunchy double-fried frieten and pungent, processed meatshapes retailed by grunting trogs in striplight-lit prefab structures resembling portable toilets; cantilevered beer-bellies that precede streetcorners only to be followed seconds later by the cholesterol-bloomed faces of their owners; churches stuffed with ramrod-stiff medieval madonnas, the streets ouside stuffed with women who resemble those ramrod-stiff medieval madonnas; snub-nosed and shortish prematurely bald pale guys with widows peaks and small trendy glasses.

These things are surely evidence of a robust culture, and should quell fears about francophone invasions of the rand and linguicide.

---
The Merchtem schoolyard ban is the perfect example. Even after seeing all sorts of anti-francophone rubbish in Belgium, it surprised even me.

Whether a similar thing was was done to your Dutch-speaking dad a generation ago, or to French/Berber/Arabic speakers today in Merchtem, such bans remain stupid and definitely deserve all the media flak they get. I see that the Flemish press, once again, has tried to dismiss any walloon reaction to it as 'heisa'.

If I were a teacher at that school, I'd have resigned, but only after spitting on all the po-faced eejits who pushed such a daft idea through the staffroom, and distributing some suitably monolingual and insulting t-shirts -- even better, headscarves -- for rebellious pupils to wear.

Surely they'd know as teachers that learning a language is volitional, based upon a personal choice to learn. Forcing people to learn against their will is a recipe for disaster. Even coercion (such as free language courses) can backfire -- it suggests that language is the sole factor of acceptance by one's new neigbours, and can lead to feelings you are being shoehorned into the culture. Positive motivators -- like the ability to live in a place that makes instant-orgasm chocolates -- are more lkely to succeed.

belgophile, you clearly see things from a 'francophone' perspective.
I don't think Flanders is more or less 'xenophobe' than any other European country. So no need to come up with groteque comparisons with Germany 1940!

Just put yoursef in their shoes.

Flanders was denied its culture by Belgium for years and years. Belgium tried to erase the 'flemish culture' to make Belgium a sort of copy of France. Even today, 176(!) years later, francophones in Flanders refuse to learn Dutch. In Walloon schools students are free to choose whether they learn Dutch or not. Do you think it's normal for a minority in a country not have to learn the language of the majority? And still I hear Francophone politicians talk about 'respect'!?
Flanders is keeping Belgium alive and what does it gets in return? Nothing, it even has to fight to keep its own territory, and we're 2006. Think about thàt.

One reason that the government of Belgium is so large and wields so much power is that the culture is so weak. Or perhaps it's just that the people are so weak.

Belgians need to stop looking to their political parties (corrupt or otherwise) and start looking to eachother. Governments cannot legislate integration (although I do applaud their efforts). My family immigrated less than a century ago and the original language is now lost. Do I see that as a shame? Not really. My family had to adapt to survive. That meant speaking English - even to eachother.

I don't mean to spark (yet another) Belgian linguistic battle. My point is that societies should police themselves and not rely on "big brother" to do it for them. In my experience, Belgians are the biggest bunch of wusses when it comes to taking a stand or speaking out. I guess that's because when you do that in Belgium, you immediately get labeled a "trouble maker". Well I say Belgium needs more trouble makers, not politicians.

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'I don't think Flanders is more or less 'xenophobe' than any other European country.'
****

First I think you need to travel more. Last I heard, Flanders was not a European country and just the generally flat bit pincered around the capital of one.

belgophile, judging from that last long winded post, I think you need to separate your fiction from non-fiction writing.

You state;

"While many are ashamed to admit it, every Fleming has a VB supporter in their family."

Oh really !??

I looked all over the house tonight but could not find a single VB supporter. I did however, find some who were concerned with the problem of immigration and how to best solve it.

jim1 - as you'll know, the concept of 'family' in Flanders is rarely restricted to the nuclear family.

So what are the concerns about immigration exactly? Are they as sane as your concerns about planes using Zaventem ;-)?

What are my "sane concerns" about immigration policy ?

Oh well, I guess I'm concerned about Belgian churches being turned into refugee camps.

I'm also wondering how the country's social services will hold up if proper control is not exercised on the number of new immigrants using the system.

And sometimes I comtemplate the story of the undocumented Brazilian construction worker who Belgian authorities deported and put him on a plane back to Sao Paulo only to have him return 3 weeks later to his old job.

Other than that, life around the airport seems to be getting better all the time. The secret is to keep the heat on BIAC and prevent them from thinking they have carte blanche.

Quote:

De Franstaligen blijven zich kanten tegen de nieuwe Vlaamse wooncode. Een delegatie van het Vlaams parlement en vertegenwoordigers van het Waals parlement en het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap konden maandag op een informele vergadering in de Senaat geen vergelijk vinden. De bal ligt nu in het kamp van de Senaat en wellicht nadien het overlegcomité van de verschillende regeringen.

De Vlaamse regering wijzigde enkele maanden geleden de Vlaamse wooncode. Opvallendste wijziging is de invoering van een taalbereidheidsvereiste voor mensen die in Vlaanderen een sociale woning willen. Dat houdt in dat een Nederlandsonkundige huurder bereid moet zijn Nederlands te leren. De Franstaligen vinden dat de taalvereiste indruist tegen de grondwet. Zowel het Waals parlement als het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap riepen tot twee keer toe een belangenconflict in, waardoor de goedkeuring van het Vlaamse plan op de lange baan wordt geschoven. De informele verzoeningsvergadering maandag leverde niets op. Iedereen bleef bij zijn standpunt.
(Belga 18:47)

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In an international forum, where english is used, I find it indecent to include passages in your dialect that nobody understands anyway. Except inhabitants from the same area .
There must be forum in your dialect in which you can express yourself in Afrikaans or flemish.

Well, Moustique, this is indeed an international forum, but for expats living in BELGIUM. Given that Dutch is spoken by 60% of the Belgian population, it's not unreasonable to include comments here in Dutch, especially when it involves direct quotes from newspapers or Internet sites. Feel free to post comments in French, too, if you so wish!

Quote:

Quote:

De Franstaligen blijven zich kanten tegen de nieuwe Vlaamse wooncode. Een delegatie van het Vlaams parlement en vertegenwoordigers van het Waals parlement en het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap konden maandag op een informele vergadering in de Senaat geen vergelijk vinden. De bal ligt nu in het kamp van de Senaat en wellicht nadien het overlegcomité van de verschillende regeringen.

De Vlaamse regering wijzigde enkele maanden geleden de Vlaamse wooncode. Opvallendste wijziging is de invoering van een taalbereidheidsvereiste voor mensen die in Vlaanderen een sociale woning willen. Dat houdt in dat een Nederlandsonkundige huurder bereid moet zijn Nederlands te leren. De Franstaligen vinden dat de taalvereiste indruist tegen de grondwet. Zowel het Waals parlement als het parlement van de Franse gemeenschap riepen tot twee keer toe een belangenconflict in, waardoor de goedkeuring van het Vlaamse plan op de lange baan wordt geschoven. De informele verzoeningsvergadering maandag leverde niets op. Iedereen bleef bij zijn standpunt.
(Belga 18:47)

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In an international forum, where english is used, I find it indecent to include passages in your dialect that nobody understands anyway. Except inhabitants from the same area .
There must be forum in your dialect in which you can express yourself in Afrikaans or flemish.

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"I find it indecent to include passages in your dialect that nobody understands anyway."

Rest my case.

Quote:

Well, Moustique, this is indeed an international forum, but for expats living in BELGIUM. Given that Dutch is spoken by 60% of the Belgian population, it's not unreasonable to include comments here in Dutch, especially when it involves direct quotes from newspapers or Internet sites. Feel free to post comments in French, too, if you so wish!

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Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...

Quote:

Quote:

Well, Moustique, this is indeed an international forum, but for expats living in BELGIUM. Given that Dutch is spoken by 60% of the Belgian population, it's not unreasonable to include comments here in Dutch, especially when it involves direct quotes from newspapers or Internet sites. Feel free to post comments in French, too, if you so wish!

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Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...


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Completely nutters.... a very dedicated troll.

Quote:

Quote:

Well, Moustique, this is indeed an international forum, but for expats living in BELGIUM. Given that Dutch is spoken by 60% of the Belgian population, it's not unreasonable to include comments here in Dutch, especially when it involves direct quotes from newspapers or Internet sites. Feel free to post comments in French, too, if you so wish!

************************************
Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...


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I believe xpat-fora where never any reference is made to local media in local languages would make for a very very bizarre concept... but then again, so are you.

"... Autrement dit, la Flandre veut tout: le beurre et l'argent du beurre. En outre, les Flamans maîtrisent l'essentiel des mécanismes fédéraux, parce que leur nombre et, surtout, leur bilinguisme , leur donnent un avantage naturel."

Elio blaming Flems for abusing Belgium by being too bilingual....

as I said... mindboggling and breathtakingly weird.

IKEA and Decathlon were only allowed to set up shop in Brussels if they agreed to fill the majority of vacancies by people living in Brussels...
marvelous... governments intervening with private companies' hiring policies, Flem customers unlikely to helped out in Dutch (as being unable to speak Dutch is the one thing 90% of unemployed Brussleers have in common).

Imagine Flanders passing laws private companies couldn't hire people from the rest of the country... I can already see the headlines...

But then again, as Di Rupo told us... "on veut le beurre et l'argent du beurre". By being bilingual we abuse the Belhgian system... we abuse it because by being Flemish we stand a lower chance of becoming a public servant or politician... and soon we will abuse it because by being Flemish we will no longer be allowed to work in the private sector in our supposed capital.

Nasty people from the private sector... tend to favour multilingualism and working ethos... baahhhh l' état doit intervernir!

I believe xpat-fora where never any reference is made to local media in local languages would make for a very very bizarre concept... but then again, so are you.

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Have a look at the Shanghai expat forum (well, yes, this is outside of these few thousands squ .meters between the North Sea and Luxembourg ) and you will understand why a non TRANSLATED reference to the local media is ,indeed, bizarre and doesn't help much a common comprehension from the expat community. You are tolerated on this forum to express your opinions in order to help us fellows expats to get a better grip on understand the Belgian Maze but if you want to impose your dialect (chinese to the majority), feel free to use your local ultra national network.
God save the King .
And refrain from calling "bizarre" someone who expresses opinions different from yours,,this is the minimal ethical level required from a participant to an expat forum in any country.

Moustique, you need to give it a rest. You are obviously a FDF supporter, so you're hardly in a position to be giving anyone lessons on mutual tolerance and open-mindedness. Enough said...

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Moustique, you need to give it a rest. You are obviously a FDF supporter, so you're hardly in a position to be giving anyone lessons on mutual tolerance and open-mindedness. Enough said...

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Well, you get it wrong, I had to look on a website what FDF means.(thank you, very interesting by the way.If I WERE belgian-not if I was -,I might vote any party BUT this conglomerate of belgian/foreigners haters , egocentrical extremist bunch of VB ) By the way,you don't even know the nationality of participants to this forum.Think before making unfounded assumptions but then your "name" says it all ?

As I said... completely nutters. 99% of my postings around here are in English... some are in Dutch and French (as I read "across the border"). I do believe this is absolutrely normal. After all... xpats must somehow be confronted with some of the local languages some of the time ... and most will show some interest in them and yes, references to local media will pop up.

This is hilarious. Who's the biggot now?

Poor Moustique, exposed to Flems and to Dutch whilst sojourning in Belgium... perish the thought.

We got people over here who don't like our languages, our culture, our legal system, the way (some of) our women dress, the fact gays can marry... I really don't see the point in keeping them here... speak local languages, respect local laws and get a job. Otherwise: BUITEN.

But that must be racist... ooh dear, I'm so f¨cked up after decades of lefty-poofty brainwashing.... filthy Flem racist, with a Lebanese partner and a penchant for multilingual working environment.... disgusting fascists all of them.

I don't think vBs isolationist anti-immigrant stance is good for the people of the region but they have a right to have their voice heard.

Could be Flemish independence and creating two states instead of one in Belgium(like Czechoslovakia did in early 90s) is actually a good idea?

If Vallone part want to display a hospitality to immigrant from maghrib or other areas they can then do so, while if Flanders want to keep their borders lock they also can do so.

I mean it seems like two communities really can not get along, so why don't they simply divorce?

The Brussels can be divided two-part of the city should become part of Flanders, and french speaking portion-part of Vallonia.

Otherwise this current turmoil will continue forever.

Quote:

I don't think vBs isolationist anti-immigrant stance is good for the people of the region but they have a right to have their voice heard.

Could be Flemish independence and creating two states instead of one in Belgium(like Czechoslovakia did in early 90s) is actually a good idea?

If Vallone part want to display a hospitality to immigrant from maghrib or other areas they can then do so, while if Flanders want to keep their borders lock they also can do so.

I mean it seems like two communities really can not get along, so why don't they simply divorce?

The Brussels can be divided two-part of the city should become part of Flanders, and french speaking portion-part of Vallonia.

Otherwise this current turmoil will continue forever.

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1) There's no straightforward solution for Brussels

2)It's not about being a xenophobe, it's about having a say on who gets residencey and nationality.

MR wanted foreign-based Belgians to be able to vote (as these mostly are well to do liberal voters). They did so and registered en masse for the BHV district (which has to be split according to judicial ruling from 2007 on)... which pissed off Flems. Now you can have some-one who grew up in Botrange and then moved to Paris deciding on which parliamentary representative Leuven will get.... weird and provocative.

In exchange for the MR-votes the PS wanted non-EU-votes for communal elections.

I'm still wondering what Flems got...


Anyhoos... shit like residency and voting rights shoudl'nt become the playing field of party and/or linguistic agenda's.... hence the determination to pull the plug on this monkey-show.... and now, we don't want Brussels, keep it. It's become filthy and chaotic.... just leave us, let us be, we don't want to Molenbeekize.

I'm registered to vote (as an EU citizen)... except that I live in Uccle/Ukkel, so I highly doubt I'll find any Flemish parties at all on the list here!
BTW, I'm thinking of requesting Belgian citizenship. I really don't feel American or French anymore. At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...


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Then you have not been reading the other forums very closely Moustique. I have seen numerous posts in German on the German forum & a few in French on the French forum. If someone wants to post here in Flemish or French, have at it! Those that can understand will respond since they are likely the intended target.

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Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...


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Then you have not been reading the other forums very closely Moustique. I have seen numerous posts in German on the German forum & a few in French on the French forum. If someone wants to post here in Flemish or French, have at it! Those that can understand will respond since they are likely the intended target.

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The intended target in an international expat forum are ,contrary to what you say,a mix of expat who are curious to watch this North-South belgian cold war and belgian locals.And the language used is english.So that, by using any local quote, you miss the point as your audience (again expats )will not get it.

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Total non -sense. The small belgian Expat Forum should learn from the other Expat Forum around Belgium.I have never seen any quote in the national language in Expatica France, Germany or the Netherlands.
Oh, well, it might be that everyone is expected to learn "that dialect" and understand it ? This is the subject of a past forum , coming back to the fact that the Northern part of Belgium still dream of imposing the use of their dialect to foreigners in exchange for the right to stay on the grounds...


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Then you have not been reading the other forums very closely Moustique. I have seen numerous posts in German on the German forum & a few in French on the French forum. If someone wants to post here in Flemish or French, have at it! Those that can understand will respond since they are likely the intended target.

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The intended target in an international expat forum are ,contrary to what you say,a mix of expat who are curious to watch this North-South belgian cold war and belgian locals.And the language used is english.So that, by using any local quote, you miss the point as your audience (again expats )will not get it.

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1) Most people at xpat fora wouldn't agree with your standpoint on references in local languages being outlawed.

2)You sort of said "don't post in your filthy dialect", which isn't the same as saying "don't post in languages other than English".

De ballen...

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Poor Moustique, exposed to Flems and to Dutch whilst sojourning in Belgium... perish the thought.

We got people over here who don't like our languages, our culture, our legal system, the way (some of) our women dress, the fact gays can marry... I really don't see the point in keeping them here... speak local languages, respect local laws and get a job. Otherwise: BUITEN.

But that must be racist... ooh dear, I'm so f¨cked up after decades of lefty-poofty brainwashing.... filthy Flem racist, with a Lebanese partner and a penchant for multilingual working environment.... disgusting fascists all of them.

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Aha, so you do have a Lebanese partner?!!

Quote: Blonde

...At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

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That was funny! why do you say that?
(I'm new to Belgium and all this Flemish/Wallon thing is incomprehensible to me!).

I hope you won't vote VB though, would you?

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Quote: Blonde

...At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

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That was funny! why do you say that?
(I'm new to Belgium and all this Flemish/Wallon thing is incomprehensible to me!).

I hope you won't vote VB though, would you?


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How can you make any credible political statement when you declare yourself ignorant on matters at stake?

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Quote: Blonde

...At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

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That was funny! why do you say that?
(I'm new to Belgium and all this Flemish/Wallon thing is incomprehensible to me!).

I hope you won't vote VB though, would you?


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How can you make any credible political statement when you declare yourself ignorant on matters at stake?

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What political statment I made apart from opposing the VB (for obvious reason, remember: I'm not Flemish, not even Belgian!) and critisizing israeli policies and war crimes (which is hardly Belgian politics!).
Oh ya, I forgot: I asked you if you have a "lebanese partner"... ok that's a Belgian politics to the bone!!! idiot <img src="../images/emoticons/yalaugh.gif">

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Quote: Blonde

...At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

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That was funny! why do you say that?
(I'm new to Belgium and all this Flemish/Wallon thing is incomprehensible to me!).

I hope you won't vote VB though, would you?


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How can you make any credible political statement when you declare yourself ignorant on matters at stake?

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What political statment I made apart from opposing the VB (for obvious reason, remember: I'm not Flemish, not even Belgian!) and critisizing israeli policies and war crimes (which is hardly Belgian politics!).
Oh ya, I forgot: I asked you if you have a "lebanese partner"... ok that's a Belgian politics to the bone!!! idiot

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Whatever... stupid of me to react. Should have known it would only result in verbal abuse.

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Quote: Blonde

...At least when you're Belgian, it's pretty normal not to feel "Belgian"!!!

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That was funny! why do you say that?
(I'm new to Belgium and all this Flemish/Wallon thing is incomprehensible to me!).

I hope you won't vote VB though, would you?


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How can you make any credible political statement when you declare yourself ignorant on matters at stake?

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What political statment I made apart from opposing the VB (for obvious reason, remember: I'm not Flemish, not even Belgian!) and critisizing israeli policies and war crimes (which is hardly Belgian politics!).
Oh ya, I forgot: I asked you if you have a "lebanese partner"... ok that's a Belgian politics to the bone!!! idiot

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Whatever... stupid of me to react. Should have known it would only result in verbal abuse.

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Ok, Ok, I apologize, I didn't meant to offend you really... I wanted to make a statement that your accusations are baseless.
So, you still didn't answer my original question? you're not even curious to know why I'm asking?!!

29 September 2006

BRUSSELS - "A Walloon with a Flemish diploma cannot become a magistrate" reported newspaper De Morgen on Thursday about Sarah Coisne (26) who studied Law in Namur and Leuven.

Awarded a Flemish diploma, she can only work in a Flemish court, a linguistic absurdity that annoys the outspoken Christian Democrat CD&V Senator Hugo Vandenberghe.
...
"In the end of the 1990s the French-speaking magistrates of Brussels processed 95 percent of the cases of the Palais de la Capitale, but only accounted for 76 percent of Brussels magistrates."


Maybe LeSoir could have mentioned that before the legislative changes Minister Melchior Watheler (PSC) pushed through there was less overload and less delay in justice. At the time a significant part of the work was done by (bilingual) Flems... which didn't suit Wathelet who wanted to see more (monolingual) walloons in court.

That's what they got... job discrimination (see also IKEA, Decathlon) and delays...

Imagine a Flem minister having done this... and what a selective memory Le Soir has.

I am puzzled about the fact that the official languages of Belgium are three, but nobody seems to give a damn about the German-speakers in this ridiculous (on both sides)language fuss - and the German-speakers seem not to give a damn themselves. I will appreciate enlightenment from the list's cognoscenti. Many thanks in advance.

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I am puzzled about the fact that the official languages of Belgium are three, but nobody seems to give a damn about the German-speakers in this ridiculous (on both sides)language fuss - and the German-speakers seem not to give a damn themselves. I will appreciate enlightenment from the list's cognoscenti. Many thanks in advance.

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Belgium's German-speakers are pampered minority in a sense that government jobs abound for them, they get their own radiostations/television/education (all subisidized).

They have cultural rights (recognition as a gemeenschap), but no formal autonomy over territorial matters (no recognition as a gewest).

When German speakers (around 90.000 in all) demanded further territorial rights, the walloon number 1 at the time, Jean-Claude Van Cauwenbarghe aka Mister scandal-monger, replied that they are "walloons who happen to speak German" and therefor don't require further rights.

But in all... it's a quiet, prosperous part of the country benefiting from their minority position. That's why they don't give you hassle when they can't get documents in German in Brussels,...

I must add they are very polite people and therefore mulitlingual people ... on average that is.... I have the impression they pick up languages easier and they find it more natural to learn Dutch than our French-speaking compatriotes.

Hi guys,

I have been reading some postings in different subjects, and every time it seems that some of you can't avoid to get in to a serious lengthy fight re politics in Belgium. I think it is nice that some of you, foreigners like myself, Vietnamese to be accurate, strongly defend what your impressions or what you have experienced here in this country, it shows you fully integrate, that you care. I really love living in Belgium because I can do and say what I believe in whereas in VN, it might create troubles. Having said that, I have friends who are Belgians (Wallons and Flemishes-bilingue if this info is neccesary), and on the contrast of what I have read in here, they do not want to divide this lovely country (it is small enough), they don't want to be classified as Wallons or Flemish but simply Belgians. I think the importance is when you see something goes wrong, you stand up and defend it, that's politics. It is not about stating your views and stereotypes in the face of people.
I have a story. Not long time ago, I was in a coffee shop in Antwerpen, and there was a Flemish lady stood in front of me, irritated by the queue, when she got the the counter, the guy who served coffee happened to be a black guy, and to be surprised, this lady told the guy "you have to get faster to serve coffee, am your client and am white" -guys, this is racism, bringing one's colour up and believe it is superieur. But that is not to say all Flemishes are racism...Like in any country, you have different sort of people, but sadly when you experienced not so good experiences, you tend to assume that all are the same.
Hence, voting for VB or any other political parties or not? It depends on what kind of political projects that they do to benefit you, and not just focus on one thing...

and BTW, it always is good to speak various languages, I think Belgium is a perfect country for learning languages. So, don't fight about the language :-). I learnt to speak French, and now I am learning Flemish/Dutch