I was wondering if anyone else had experienced problems when travelling by public transport in Brussels? I have twice been verbally abused by young men of North African appearance (not exactly sure where their ancestory lay). Once about a week ago I was called a bitch when entering a train. Also about a month ago I was called a whore when travelling on the Tram System between the North and South stations.

Of course I find this behaviour absolutely distrubing and upsetting. I believe that I have been picked out because of my 'Western' clothing/appearance, and not being covered up enough (although I do dress pretty conservatively anyway for my work). I am starting to feel less and less comfortable in Brussels.

Quote:

I was wondering if anyone else had experienced problems when travelling by public transport in Brussels? I have twice been verbally abused by young men of North African appearance (not exactly sure where their ancestory lay). Once about a week ago I was called a bitch when entering a train. Also about a month ago I was called a whore when travelling on the Tram System between the North and South stations.

Of course I find this behaviour absolutely distrubing and upsetting. I believe that I have been picked out because of my 'Western' clothing/appearance, and not being covered up enough (although I do dress pretty conservatively anyway for my work). I am starting to feel less and less comfortable in Brussels.

************************************

Sint-Joost, Midi, Anderlecht... it's been like that for a while now... used to have an ex living in one of those hoods, had 11 year olds asking her if she would fuck them as "that 's what (Flem) western women do". Think they need a slap around the ears.

I don't think I've been verbally abused as such but there certainly is a lot of cat-calling from the population you mention. Unfortunately it happens to me A LOT as I often take public transportation. It was the same when I lived in Paris... except the French ALSO participated, whereas no self-respecting Belgium would say such things. The funniest thing that was ever said to me was on avenue Louise, on one of the first days of Spring last year (i.e. T-shirt weather): "Excusez-moi de vous déranger, et croyez-moi, c'est un compliment que je vous fait, vous avez une poitrine vraiment sublime". Anyway, I find the best defense is not to respond at all. I just give them the blank stare and pretend I don't speak any Western language.

I am getting to the stage now, where I am seriously considering leaving Belgium. I am tired of paying over 50% in taxes in social security (+ what my company has to pay), only to find that those benefitting from the system have no respect for the people supporting them. In the past I didn't mind paying for those who couldn't work, but I'm now realising that there are sections of the community who appear to benefit from the system without ever giving anything back. If I can't even use public transport to get to work without being abused - then I'd rather go somewhere where my money is my own and I can use it to better my situation and that of my family. Sorry - this is a bit of a rant - but I'm tired of this situation. Recently they even started burning cars in my neighbourhood. I don't know how they have the cheek.
P.S. Love the Flemish... feel terribly sorry about the way they get used and abused in this country. If any of you Flems ever want to migrate - give me a call... in NZ!

Quote:

I am getting to the stage now, where I am seriously considering leaving Belgium. I am tired of paying over 50% in taxes in social security (+ what my company has to pay), only to find that those benefitting from the system have no respect for the people supporting them. In the past I didn't mind paying for those who couldn't work, but I'm now realising that there are sections of the community who appear to benefit from the system without ever giving anything back. If I can't even use public transport to get to work without being abused - then I'd rather go somewhere where my money is my own and I can use it to better my situation and that of my family. Sorry - this is a bit of a rant - but I'm tired of this situation. Recently they even started burning cars in my neighbourhood. I don't know how they have the cheek.
P.S. Love the Flemish... feel terribly sorry about the way they get used and abused in this country. If any of you Flems ever want to migrate - give me a call... in NZ!

************************************

Actually, I am considering Australia, NZ or Canada. Waiting for the Mrs to tie up business (and scoring some more publications in the mean time).

They (= PS and their vasals) can keep the wretched place, been harassed to death.

Can't say I blame you. Who is PS BTW? Excuse my ignorance. It's sad to say - but I think more and more ordinary working people will migrate as the situation worsens over time. I just don't see a future here any more. I can certainly recommend NZ and Oz as great places to live and work. I know there is a lot of work down there at the moment. I'm sure you'll do well. Good luck to you. They'll be lucky to have some hard working Flemish migrants <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">

Quote:

Can't say I blame you. Who is PS BTW? Excuse my ignorance. It's sad to say - but I think more and more ordinary working people will migrate as the situation worsens over time. I just don't see a future here any more. I can certainly recommend NZ and Oz as great places to live and work. I know there is a lot of work down there at the moment. I'm sure you'll do well. Good luck to you. They'll be lucky to have some hard working Flemish migrants

************************************

PS=parti socialiste, aka "Radix Malorum"

zero tolerance is your only man. Of course its not nice to generalise but most of us have experienced first-hand incidents where these lazy useless good-for-nothing north African males are rude, offensive, disruptive and anti-social. I'd be all for a direct and quick action, if found to be conducting themselves in a manner which is deemed un-acceptable in Belgium (I don't give a toss if its acceptable behaviour in their socity) then take their passports/IDs and shove them all back to where they come from. Let them behave like this with their own likes in their own country. And if they are born here and claim Belgian/EU rights tough, you know the rules, play by them or F off. And yes I know not all North African males are like this, but for those that think its ok then stuff them.

hello,
I used to live for a year or two in Brussels, after living in Paris, and my first impression was that people were terribly aggressive and impolite. I really hated living there especially because of people behaviour in public transportation, so I can understand what you're saying. I have never experienced this in Paris, although people are supposed to be rude there!!!
I find Brussels quite unsafe, and also very dirty.
I live now in Liège and things are very different here.
I understand you are considering leaving belgium, and from what I have been experienced, people are really friendly in Oz, NZ (don't know about Canada but they are supposed to be extremely nice there too!).
+.

I arrived in Brussels in 2000 from Paris as well. It was like a breath of fresh air. To be honest I never even knew about the "North African problem" in either city. But I found Brussels to be calmer. You could drive (and park) and the people were easy going.

Fast forward 5 years and I've become housebound (well, nearly). I HATE going out and it always puts me in a bad mood. This has partly to do with North Africans but also with the natives. When I approach an intersection and slow down to give priority to the right, the idiot behind me will routinely swing around me risking his life and mine! And I am considered an "aggressive driver". But compared to these people I feel like an old granny.

Why is everyone so aggressive and willing to risk their lives?

I for one AM already leaving for Oz. T minus 2.5 months and I am out of here. It's a shame that the useless local government allowed this to happen.

It's interesting to hear that you have also seen the seeming deterioration in Belgium. I arrived here around 8 years ago - and have lived all over Europe (including Paris as well), and it just seems to be going from bad to worse. I had never previously felt threatened but now do every day. One of my other female colleagues is considering wearing a head scarf outside because of the problem. I personally would rather move or fight than do this. However I understand her fear. I never experienced anything like this in Paris either. However I feel that the difference in Brussels is that the centre is largely populated by people of foreign origin - whereas in Paris it's too expensive for that to be the case. I personally believe in movement of people, but I also believe that the people native to the country should have their culture and believes respected. This means that if I as a "Western Woman" want to walk about in a bikini (which I don't... but you get my point), no one has the right to abuse me because of it. No one has the right to assume because of my appearance that I am any less moral than anyoen else - or to judge me. I know we are supposed to be a 'tolerant' society. But how to you tolerate the intolerable - or the intolerant??? Congratulations to you Kahmeelyon for making the move. We won't be too far behind you. It'll be interesting to see how Belgium will carrying on when all the people working and paying for the social system - actually leave!

loubey, I could not have said it better myself!

However, imagine my DISMAY when I find out that this paradise that I am going to is under SEIGE by rampaging "youths". The Aussies are doing there best not to call this a Muslim thing, but I'm not so sure. They've been calling on "Muslim Leaders" to try to calm the community. Remember the good old days when we just called their parents?

We need to stop recognizing these religious leaders as somehow more powerful or influential than local police or members of government.

*sigh* I'm just so flippin' tired of all of this.

Quote:

loubey, I could not have said it better myself!

However, imagine my DISMAY when I find out that this paradise that I am going to is under SEIGE by rampaging "youths". The Aussies are doing there best not to call this a Muslim thing, but I'm not so sure. They've been calling on "Muslim Leaders" to try to calm the community. Remember the good old days when we just called their parents?

We need to stop recognizing these religious leaders as somehow more powerful or influential than local police or members of government.

*sigh* I'm just so flippin' tired of all of this.

************************************

Indeed I saw TV reports. Apparently just a mere rumor started it, but in the end all Lebanese (looking) people were targeted and the police were also beaten-up by the thugs, some of them were even women kicking someone lying on the floor.

Seems always there is a barbarian streak in Aussie's behaviour that refuses to die. In the atmosphere of hate they ignored the fact that the majority of Lebanese exiles are actually Christians... in the end it ended-up being just a racist fascist thuggery.

I still say the quality of life in Belgium is excellent.

Moving may eliminate getting harrased on trains and trams but you might move to a place that doesn't have good public transportation. Low taxes might seem like a solution to a problem until you notice some of the poor countries in the world have very low taxes.

Just ignore the idiots and don't make their problems your problem.

Thanks for the advice jim1. It's not just the abuse on the trains etc that's the problem. It's just one more symptom of the degredation of the place. I personally don't mind paying high taxes if I get to live free from harassment and fear. It's easy to say 'ignore those people', but it's harder to do when your on your own - surrounded by a group of young guys giving you abuse - refusing to move so you have to squeeze past them on the tram. It's scary - and the other problem is no one ever intervenes. I do agree with your issue of taxation. I appreciate the public services here very much. What I don't like is the way the system is one sided. I also don't like the rudeness of the place. Just this morning a man slammed his briefcase into my leg from behind and not only didn't apologise but gave me the dirtiest look. I'm just tired of it all. Give me some wide open spaces, friendly people, reasonable taxes - and a system that doesn't punish the hard working.

Quote:

*sigh* I'm just so flippin' tired of all of this.

************************************

Better get used to it. Western Europe will be majority Muslim by the end of the century. Politicians will not do anything about it save pandering to the Arabic and Muslim blocs for votes as those groups continue to increase in numbers. In the meantime your right to say anything about it will be taken away as any anti-Muslim opinion will be regarded as "racist" (well that exists now I am afraid). Look up "dhimmitude" on the net and learn to love being a second class *subject* in your own country.

Ahh... finally some voices of reason appear in the morass of political correctness.

Has it occured to anyone how we exalt democracy (rule by majority) as the best form of government but we routinely cater to the minority? When will be allowed to be proud of our culture and to criticise those who would seek to limit it?

rancher, I am a fellow dhimmi (not by choice). Great site here:

<a href="http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch" Target="_BLANK">http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch</a>/

Good grief I just went to that website - which is frightening! I wonder what form the denial of rights and subjucation might take? They hardly treat each other particularly well (especially with regards to women). I always wonder why a population would chose for a system which is so prescriptive - and gives so little room for individual happiness? I was talking to a Czech friend of mine about living under a Totalitarian regime, as compared to 'the Western/American' ideal - and his comment was 'At least with the American system - you have the possiblity of happiness'. I think this sums up why I would flee rather than live under any kind of strict idealogical system. No happiness possible. I know our system is far from perfect - but I wouldn't want it any other way. I remember when I was working in Paris - on my own as a single women - suddenly realising just how lucky I was to have all these possiblities, and to live out my dreams. May it never change.

If you observe history you will notice that Europe has been plagued by a lack of people stepping in to change anything. There's a major consensus, in Belgium for instance (regarding the whole Muslim problem), that other people's problems are not your's, and you therefore shouldn't try to help other people when they're being harrassed by a group of little Muslim shits.

I'll give you an example:

A few months ago I was in a bar and noticed this really fat guy drunk off his ass, to the point where was sleeping in his chair, failing down, etc. So, I tried to do the gentlemanly thing and wake him up and give him some water. (The reason I stepped in was because I know someone whose best friend died of alcohol poisoning while sleeping at a bar.) A minute later this really fat girl comes up to me and tells me to leave this guy alone, as he's the owner of the bar next door and that this happens a lot. (A piece of advice: Don't mess with fat girls in Belgium!) A few minutes later this guy explains to me how I shouldn't have bothered with the situation because it wasn't my problem.

"Because it's not your problem" were his exact words.

From that day forward I really began to understand how prevalent the "it's not your problem" attitude is in Belgium.

Have you ever noticed how when you're moving through crowds of Belgians that the only Belgians that seem to twist their body a bit so that you can pass (as you return the favor by half-twisting your torso) are old people? Even people in Manhattan on a Monday morning are more polite than people on Belgian streets. What's that all about?

Back to the subject. I really don't know whether or not there is a solution to the Muslim problem, as many people believe racial undertones fuel such change.

I guess this is where Vlaams Belang will gain some strong votes.

In all honesty, one of the main reasons I avoid going out to Brussels is because of the Muslims. I would feel safer walking around Harlem at night, wearing an "I hate (insert racial epithet)!" than walking around Brussels at night.

I remember walking in Brussels with two friends: a guy and a girl, and these Muslim kids were trying to grab her and saying things like "come over here" and stuff like that.

I'm sorry but I have three things to say to that: fuck that shit!

Maybe the best solution here is for the Russian mafia to settle into Brussels (they really hate Muslims apparently), and shake things up a bit.

DW - be careful not to confuse religion with race. I havent got a clue (and care less) what god these people pray to. I have qualified my comment also by saying that "not all north Africans" have such dis-respect for their fellow citizens but unfortunately a lot seem to and it does seem to be a recurring problem. They dont seem to discipline their male children, again based on my first hand experience its always young male north Africans that are rude, aggressive, intimidating etc.

I dont give a toss for religion, be they christian, muslim, hindu, jew, or Dizziests. Its well documented that Christians have been party to some of the most horrific and evil deeds in our history. This "them versus us" or "Christian versus Muslim" crap that is coming out of the US is about as stupid as your president.

BTW - I find it quite funny that the fat lass told you piss off and mind your own business. Yanks really havent got a clue sometimes..... Can I call you Ned from now on ?

In the UK you'd ASBO (anti-social behaviour order) these f***ers of the streets. I'm not saying the UK is a paradise, there's still lots of antisocial behaviour going on, but I think ASBOs are making a dent in the problem and getting rid of the worst offenders.

I agree Ventho, the ASBO are a step in the right direction. Its a shame that we have to be so heavy handed about this but I definately feel that the majority of people should not have to suffer because a minority of people decide to raise their kids to be useless layabouts. In my opinion parents of minors who constantly offend should also be held to account. To hell with this "they are victims too" crap. If they cant or dont want to raise their kids to have some respect for the society that they live in then penalise them. Impose financial penalties on their parents or guardians.

Dear DiZZy,

ok you're right. Christians have made some of the most horrific things in history. But it has happened centuries ago. After that, we in the west have had centuries of culture and philosopy, even grown up from christian theology itself, which had made us free from any form of middle-age violence and barbarism. We have gone far ahead. This has not happened with muslims.
We should put pressure to push them out of europe.
Guys, we have also a discussion ongoing under the headline: march for freedon and aganinst muslim violence, in belgian news.

To a previous post: dont fear the muslims in the brussels streets. I can assure you that they are really cowards. Contrary, unfortunately, to some black 'bandits' in harlem or philly.

I welcome all Muslims, all Hindus, all Christians, all religions, even all Jews to Europe. I dont care what god they pray to, as long as they are willing to work and contribute to society and adhere to the laws of Europe then they are welcome. Useless lazy layabouts need not apply.

Stupid radical religous extremists can piss off and do nothing somewhere else.

Islam has for centuries turned its back to science and their leaders have allowed their citizens to become poor and ignorant. They have subjugated their female population which causes further brain drain of their societies.

Except for oil, nothing of importance has come out of the Muslim world. No patents, no Nobel prizes, hardly an Olympic athlete.

No wonder they can get all hot and bothered about a silly cartoon ......they got nothing else going on !

One question: do you find the advances from a male in a public place(I mean non violet approach of course) offensive? And if you do then why?

Such extreme sensitivity can be sign of health problem, caused by workplace or some other stress may be.

Also seems like the legend of "north african male calling white woman a bitch" is travelling on the expat websites for a while now, duplicating itself in every possible way and constantly provoking an zealos anti immigrant response and call to right wingparty(FB in Belgian case,LPF in Dutchcase, and blanat French bashing combined with a hint ofbringing inAmerican troops in French case) tostep in is sort of trade mark from some propaganda machine.. Ijust can't indicate it's origin but the machanism of working is clear.
Funny is that usially when one(like me) tryes to clarify such incindents(which in my 10 yeas of living in Western Europe are rare occurance) then supposed "victims" allways gets all offended, refuses to give any details, any explanation why she had not appealed toteh autorities and begins toplay innosence abused.

Basicaly only reason this stories(alongside with legends of "muslims burning cars") are circulated is to put some extra gasoline into the flame of anti-immirant hysteria, thats it.


But aside from original complaint(which had to be reported to the police by the way) iam acctually shocked that even anoral and polite attempt to communicate is seen as an offense by some people here.

Quote:

One question: do you find the advances from a male in a public place(I mean non violet approach of course) offensive? And if you do then why?

Such extreme sensitivity can be sign of health problem, caused by workplace or some other stress may be.

Also seems like the legend of "north african male calling white woman a bitch" is travelling on the expat websites for a while now, duplicating itself in every possible way and constantly provoking an zealos anti immigrant response and call to right wingparty(FB in Belgian case,LPF in Dutchcase, and blanat French bashing combined with a hint ofbringing inAmerican troops in French case) tostep in is sort of trade mark from some propaganda machine.. Ijust can't indicate it's origin but the machanism of working is clear.
Funny is that usially when one(like me) tryes to clarify such incindents(which in my 10 yeas of living in Western Europe are rare occurance) then supposed "victims" allways gets all offended, refuses to give any details, any explanation why she had not appealed toteh autorities and begins toplay innosence abused.

Basicaly only reason this stories(alongside with legends of "muslims burning cars") are circulated is to put some extra gasoline into the flame of anti-immirant hysteria, thats it.


But aside from original complaint(which had to be reported to the police by the way) iam acctually shocked that even anoral and polite attempt to communicate is seen as an offense by some people here.

************************************

Nick, I don’t think it’s accurate to call that a propaganda. Harassments perpetuated by men/youth of muslim/African background are higher, in relative %, than those caused by people of other background. I’ve seen that all over the place in France, Holland or Belgium and seems to be a general problem in Europe. However, average westerners/Europeans on the street make the “amalgam” between youth troublemakers (from the mentioned backgrounds) and the “self-respecting” muslim who genuinely practice his religion ( ‘à la letter’ maybe, but this is another discussion). Being myself of muslim background (somehow “europunized”) I used to know numbers of those self-respecting muslims: they think you’re wrong but they are harmless in the sense that they would not cause any trouble/harassment (at least the immense majority of them who lives in Europe). Even with the more fundamentalist one of them, you got more chance to be blown-up in the bus than harassed (sexually or verbally) if you happen to be in a Bikini!
As for the Aussie Lebanese thugs/ troublemakers, I hope they’ll rotten in jail. I assure you, no hatred here as I’m myself Lebanese!. If the Aussie would consider accepting apologies, they can certainly count on mine.

"Nick, I don’t think it’s accurate to call that a propaganda. Harassments perpetuated by men/youth of muslim/African background are higher, in relative %, than those caused by people of other background. "

Mostly such "statistics" is to be found on the websites who aslo publish Oriana Fallaci,avergae IQ or westerner comparedto others and ideas about Western Civilisation being destryed by immigrants.
But could be that particular % of harrastments perpetuated by muslim/african background is hiher. you now wahy? Becuase if euopean man does it it is called "romantic advance" or "flirt" untill man will do something really nasty. But if African or Middle Eastern man would simply invite a nice european girl for a drink(yes with an intention to establish a romantic relationship, do you see anything wrong in it) it often is considered as a "harrastement".

"As for the Aussie Lebanese thugs/ troublemakers, I hope they’ll rotten in jail."

Excuse me?
If you mean the Sydney riots I thought only thugs there been a white Aussie Anglo-Celtic suprematists who had shocked the world with a most disguising examples of racist mob justice.. Is here something to apologise about too may be?
How the blame went onLebaneese all the sudden?

David do you mean that walking in Haarlem with a T-shirt saing "I hate n..gers" is safer then walking in Brusels with a T-shirt "I hate muslims"?

Don't know,I should try.. Iwas n Brussels few times recently and it sems very safe place. Very safe.

Quote:

"Nick, I don’t think it’s accurate to call that a propaganda. Harassments perpetuated by men/youth of muslim/African background are higher, in relative %, than those caused by people of other background. "

Mostly such "statistics" is to be found on the websites who aslo publish Oriana Fallaci,avergae IQ or westerner comparedto others and ideas about Western Civilisation being destryed by immigrants.
But could be that particular % of harrastments perpetuated by muslim/african background is hiher. you now wahy? Becuase if euopean man does it it is called "romantic advance" or "flirt" untill man will do something really nasty. But if African or Middle Eastern man would simply invite a nice european girl for a drink(yes with an intention to establish a romantic relationship, do you see anything wrong in it) it often is considered as a "harrastement".

************************************
Well, you seem hard to convince!! accidently, the following article appeard on Expatica yesterday:

<a href="http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=24&story_id=28044&name=Four+in+10+detainees+are+immigrants" Target="_BLANK">http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...igrants</a>+

Does that ring any bell?

Furthermore, I'm takling about a first hand experience: I've been agressed twice in Lyon public transport: once by a drunk black and another by a couple algerians youth.
Well, with the black fellow who was sitting next to me stinking alcohol with big bottle in the hand, I didn't pay attention to what he was saying (who the hell care what a drunk would say), and suddenly he went on with rage to hit me with his big bottle saying he will teach me how to respect a negro!! With the algerians "cousins", I was staring too much to their side...
Not to mention that my partner got her bike stolen twice by north african, once just in front of her while she was talking to me on the phone from a public 'cabinet'!

Personally, I think many europeans vote extreme-right just because they were agressed somehow by north african.

If these troublmakers can hit me with a bottle, agress me in a bus, and I am a MAN not specifically blond or european looking, then I guess they certainly can agress and rape women in the train or other places (and hell, it happened in the day-light in France!)...

I should stress again that this group IS a minority among the arabs/muslims/africans immigrants... but it just take one rotten apple to make the whole lot stinks!

The solution? I don't know, but certainly these people lack proper education at home and in schools (if they ever make it to high school anyway).

By the way almost all these trouble makers ARE europeans born and raised! you'll hardly find a true immigrant (who comes from north africa or middle east for example) to be any trouble maker.... they're usually here for higher study or work (take my humble example!). What rages me about europeans attitude as a whole is that they often prescute the 'honest' immigrants by the fault of their own citizens (who happens to be of immigrants ORIGINS).

I always hear europeans fear that immigrants are abusing the system, so immigrations should be halted! I'm sure that 99% of system abusers are europeans CITIZENS (of immigrants origins or not). Hell, even if I want to abuse the system I couldn't: if I loose my job I'll get no work nor resident permit, I cannot even qualify for unemployement benefits, nor can my unemployed partner qualify for any social benefits whatsover! I think the europeans should take care of their own shit citizens first (of immigrants origins or not) and stop blaming everything on immigrants arab/muslim/africans!

As for the Lebanese thugs, I'm just refering to the story of the lebanese gangs that went around raping aussies women because they are aussie!! I didnt verify that myself, but i read stories on expatica and forums... if this is the case, they shoudl certainly rotten in jail as any miserable criminal and lebanese communities should apologies (what I'm doing) otherwise the average aussie will think that all lebanese are alike (miserable rapers!!) and this something I don't like to stand for!

By the way, I also offer apologies to the 'Danes' because their embassy was put on fire in Beirut (this should have not happen) whatever the reasons are! please don't put the whole lebanese/arabs/muslims/africans in the same lot!

Well I wonder if there is some particular female who is constantly abosed in public transport al around europe from France to Holland(and of course offenders reveal their passport details) or this rather nasy urban myth just is cloning itself from place to place.
I travel a lot,a nd mostly by public transport-all around europe.i have never seen such thing, yet I guess I am just lucky..

"As for the Lebanese thugs, I'm just referring to the story of the Lebanese gangs that went around raping Aussies women because they are Aussie!! I didnt verify that myself, but i read stories on expatica and forums..."

There are some bunch of Aussie skinheads (Nuke family) who used this rather idiotic excuse to justify the anti immigrant mob riot in Sydney few months ago. Do not have to bealive anything they say.

Quote:

I was wondering if anyone else had experienced problems when travelling by public transport in Brussels? I have twice been verbally abused by young men of North African appearance (not exactly sure where their ancestory lay). Once about a week ago I was called a bitch when entering a train. Also about a month ago I was called a whore when travelling on the Tram System between the North and South stations.

Of course I find this behaviour absolutely distrubing and upsetting. I believe that I have been picked out because of my 'Western' clothing/appearance, and not being covered up enough (although I do dress pretty conservatively anyway for my work). I am starting to feel less and less comfortable in Brussels.

************************************
Loubey,
What a horrible experience. I have seen some of this strange anti-social behaviour on public transportation and yes, it makes me feel very, very unsafe in Brussels. Would you mind telling us in which area you have encountered this the most please? If at all possible, I will avoid them like the plauge. Take care.

Nick,
Believe you me: it is a totally different experience for a lone woman to share public transportation with some chauvinistic boors. I find myself staying more and more indoors, especially at night, to avoid these nasty experiences. And no, I am not even close to looking like a "white woman" - let alone one "in a bikini."

It's sad: if terrorism is their goal, it looks like they may be winning – at least in Brussels.

...
It's sad: if terrorism is their goal, it looks like they may be winning – at least in Brussels.

************************************

Sad to hear that these "delinquants" got to you also... qualifying their acts as terrorism is somehow overdone; They are at best troublemakers and at worst "common thugs".
I think the police should do better their job in many of Brussels area. In all cases this phenomenon is there to stay for long (to my hamble opinion); it would take ages to provide proper education and equal-oppotunities to these potential street vandalists...

One thing annoy me is that the europeans brought very low educated people from africa in the 60 and 70 for obvious reasons without providing them proper integration means. The results is now; while the "programed" mass immigration of that era is long over; the europeans blame all economics/integration/insecurity/system-abuse problems on newcomers (especially of arabs/muslims/africans background, because of obvious prejudices) and simply discard the fact that over 99% of these troublemakers are europeans CITIZENS (though majority of 2d generation immigrants origins).

They have allowed mass immigrantions of mainly low-profile migrants in the past without providing proper support, they should assumes the responsibility of their crap chidren who are now fellow citizens, born AND raised in europe.

" if terrorism is their goal, it looks like they may be winning – at least in Brussels"

People who harras single woman in public transport are terrorists?
By teh way what is your definition of harrastement? people understand it diffeently.

"One thing annoy me is that the Europeans brought very low educated people from Africa in the 60 and 70 for obvious reasons without providing them proper integration means"

excuse me but what do you mean by "low educated"? I had a contact with different tips during my life and never met any "low educated people". The only low educated people I have met are few, very few individuals who allow themselves to pass judgement about education, moral qualities and character of others instead of having a look at themselves. Their own selves not at their nation I mean.

Quote:

Sad to hear that these "delinquants" got to you also... qualifying their acts as terrorism is somehow overdone; They are at best troublemakers and at worst "common thugs".

************************************
Minerva,

Yes, calling it terrorism in the conventional sense was an overstatement and a really bad choice of words on my part. My apologies. Thank you, by the way, for that background information - it does explain some of the social dynamics of this country.

However, I want you to know that it was not fanatic political or religious terrorism to which I was alluding previously – but some form of urban terrorism that is being carried out by these hooligans and thugs on the street. Please understand that I haven’t taken aim at any particular ethnic group or race here. And believe it or not: I am still having difficulty in successfully differentiating between most North African Arabs and some Flemish/Walloons just by first glance (call me colour-blind or perhaps just “too slow”!).

What I do know however is that in just three months of living in Brussels, I have seen - directly and indirectly - the physical and psychological toll these goons can cause on ordinary citizens. Just yesterday - out of the blue – some ruffian loudly blasted a quiet tram rider for “looking his way”. The victim just put his head down and pretended it was not happening. I couldn’t help thinking “oh my god, that could’ve been me!” I recently learnt how a woman in our community was beaten up by some of these brutes at a metro station - after she gave them “the finger” to their cat calls. Also, I learnt of a horrendous attempt by some of these thugs to abduct a woman we know (but thankfully failed).

So call it what you will, but I can tell you that I am terrified to go out at night alone. I am terrified of being robbed again – on the streets or at home. I am terrified of being subject to verbal assaults and leering stares by groups of youth.

I have never before had to curtail my movements so drastically, to keep an eye on my belongings so constantly, to always be on guard incessantly and to pay so much for insurance against theft/break ins…etc…. This is a hell of a scary place to live! Why oh why did the EU, NATO etc… establish themselves here?

Quote:

"One thing annoy me is that the Europeans brought very low educated people from Africa in the 60 and 70 for obvious reasons without providing them proper integration means"

excuse me but what do you mean by "low educated"? I had a contact with different tips during my life and never met any "low educated people". The only low educated people I have met are few, very few individuals who allow themselves to pass judgement about education, moral qualities and character of others instead of having a look at themselves. Their own selves not at their nation I mean.



************************************
Nick, You don’t need a rocket scientist if you recruit someone to clean up your shits! Of course these original driven-by-fortune and better-live immigrants have no higher education, if any, because they were precisely asked to take jobs which even the less-than-average Europeans would not take (construction, mining, cleaning, …). My analysis is that most parents didn’t bother whether their children are having proper education at school in order to secure their future. This combined with the generally accepted concept (even unconsciously in certain cases) that “these people are here to clean shits, so will their children”, didn’t contribute that much in improving the situation a bit! Having said that, I don’t really blame the Europeans as much as the parents and the kids themselves…. The Europeans may have prejudices and preconceived attitude about immigrants (especially Arabs/Africans), but to my limited experience they, in their majority, will not completely close the doors in front of you if you’re willing and up to the challenge. I'm talking here about job opportunities, especially if you’re qualified Europeans of immigrant originsm, but not without difficulies, I reckon.

And why anyway you seem so badly defending my “cousins”? Is that because you are a “cousin” yourself? <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">Or you have such a deep disrespect to the Europeans societies (a kind of eagerness to revenge something!!)? Or just for the sake of the “I’m not of your opinion” argument? (which is also fine by me). In all cases you would be one of the very small “Europeans intellect”'s minority who is roaming against the current, and for that maybe you deserve a “medaille” of courage or stupidity (just depends on who’s looking at the case). From my part, I’ll give you the first one <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">

"Nick, You don’t need a rocket scientist if you recruit someone to clean up your shits! Of course these original driven-by-fortune and better-live immigrants have no higher education, if any, because they were precisely asked to take jobs which even the less-than-average Europeans would not take (construction, mining, cleaning, …). "

I am one of them<img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">
I have done all that staff-worked a cleaner, bouncer, janitor, hotel receptionist and still sending around solicitation letters for that kind of jobs. Because only reason I am living in Europe for past 10 years and moving from Amsterdam to Brussels is moving after better quality of life. Pursuit of happiness ever head of such thing? Do you think I am less educated then other people? Or less educated with average European? i wonder how you prove it. I have a university degree, but believe me most people who you see cleaning the street or waitressing in the public places have it too.
Take it this way-average garbage cleaning North African immigrant in Brussels usually speaks thee or four languages: his native tongue(sometime both Arabic and Berber), french, Flemish and sometimes English. Such person usually has an rich travel experience because before lading on Brussels street with a broom he would travel around a lot to get even to that position. Often such people have hard time making friends with locals and spend Lot's of time in the library or on line. Now who is Moe "educated" such cleaner or some average Belgian who is not cleaning a street only because of privileged position in welfare receiving scale life had put him into.


By the way it does not take rocket scientists to clean the garbage at the street. To do cleaning good it takes a competent professional and preferably experienced cleaner; and not every rocket scientists would be able to do that job. And who knows which job is more important. If rocket scientists will go on strike most of us will hardly ever notice. Now, how about garbage collectors?

"Is that because you are a “cousin” yourself? "

No I am Georgian. In someplace like Brussels I may haven't been so sensitive but after 10 years in Amsterdam where Blondie part of the population calls anyone with a Mediterranean appearance by a wonderful name "turkmarokanen" and refuses to go deep into discussin if person is realy not "turkmarokan" but Greek, Italian or Sephardic jew, becasue "all THIS PEOPLE are the same" I get used to assotaite myself with those people.

Quote:

By the way it does not take rocket scientists to clean the garbage at the street. To do cleaning good it takes a competent professional and preferably experienced cleaner; and not every rocket scientists would be able to do that job. And who knows which job is more important. If rocket scientists will go on strike most of us will hardly ever notice. Now, how about garbage collectors?

************************************

Nick, you certainly have a point. I salute your courage in enjoying low-profile jobs… I myself did a lot of this kind of jobs when I was student: cleaning dishes in a hotel, surveillance/reception agent… and I’m proud of that.
When I mentioned that immigrants have generally lower education, I didn’t have in mind any prejudices/disrespect about that; I was only criticizing their general disinterest in supporting their children to get higher education (as if their destiny is to clean the streets, or worse, wonder in the streets)! Contrast that with the fact that many elderly in my own family are almost illiterate, but they have a lot of merit because it’s seen as devotion to encourage/support children to get higher education.
I have no argument whatsoever with any honest immigrant who cleans streets… maybe he’s even more useful than a rocket scientist in our daily life, as you fairly mentioned. I have, however, serious arguments with ANY bandits who harass and aggress people, just because they are going about their daily business! Now how do you explain that about 80% of these anti-social elements are of African immigrants origins? The way I see it is that their parents doesn’t care much where the children end-up (school or street)… This already gives us a hint about a solution: give these people good education (talking here about professional and higher diplomas) and equal-opportunities. The latter is the responsibility of the society (and I think Europe is doing fine with that)… the former is the responsibility of the parents and the individual themselves! As an old saying put it right: help yourself and God will help you.
I would prefer a “cleaner” with a diploma than a “diplomless” cleaner! Perhaps with only “educated” people and less ones interested in cleaning, cleaning salaries will “sky-rocket” and make the rocket scientists wish to “clean” <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">

Quote:

....
I have never before had to curtail my movements so drastically, to keep an eye on my belongings so constantly, to always be on guard incessantly and to pay so much for insurance against theft/break ins…etc…. This is a hell of a scary place to live! Why oh why did the EU, NATO etc… establish themselves here?

************************************
Hi world corp,

I really feel very sorry (and worry) for the degree of damage these thugs have caused you. They really seem getting deep into your psyche and this is NOT a healthy sign!!!
Unfortunately, I think this problem of “urban terrorism” (as you rightly put it) is there to stay for long time to come… I heard also analysis that the police usually intervene too late, because if there is no “blood” they have nothing to do. I mean verbal and gesture harassments will yield nothing reporting it to the police, apparently legally they can do nothing about that (at best a couple of hours detention and then the thug is again a bird-free with even bigger hatred!).
I suggest you talk to friends more often and avoid hot neighbourhoods when alone. If you have a good job, better to have a car and pass-on the trouble of the public transport. Also I think some neighbourhoods in Brussels are much calmer and secure than others (at least this will give you psychological relaxation when you wake-up suddenly in the middle of the night). Where do you live if you don’t mind me asking? Did you consider moving to another place in or around Brussels?
From your posts I got the feeling that you’re an American(Canadian)-Asian, I think such communities is large in Brussels, try to find out to have less free time thinking about what sucks in that city.
I would be more than willing if I can help, but I moved to Liege recently…. Anyway I wish you all the luck and don’t hesitate to post here your thoughts and experiences… that’s how I did (and still doing) when I want to comfort myself that what’s happening is not against me personally (it comforts to talk to people who experiences the same thoughts and feelings). All the best and keep-it up <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">

Quote:
I would be more than willing if I can help, but I moved to Liege recently…. Anyway I wish you all the luck and don’t hesitate to post here your thoughts and experiences… that’s how I did (and still doing) when I want to comfort myself that what’s happening is not against me personally (it comforts to talk to people who experiences the same thoughts and feelings). All the best and keep-it up
************************************

Thank you Minerva – much appreciate your concerns and advice. I am just going through a nasty bout of culture shock...but should get over it soon!

I am trying hard to see a more balanced picture – both the good and the bad. The hard part is that we have had so many nasty experiences (crime, crime and more crime) and met so many rude people at the very beginning of our move here that it has not been so easy to see the “good.”

Myself, I never take public transportation after 9pm. Also, we live in a low-crime "up-town" area with embassies just around the corner from us, so our own neighbourhood is not the problem – it is when we go “downtown” that we get exposed to crime and such hooligans. General rudeness however seems to be prevalent: good neighbourhood or not, customer service borders on psychopathic....

Also, I am realising and slowly coming to terms with the fact that it is very hard to get to know the locals. Back home, one of the things we did, within several months of moving to a new area (whether a big Canadian city or a small one) was to have a neighbourhood soiree or just wine and treats on a Sunday afternoon. It worked so well in getting to know the immediate neighbourhood and in meeting new folk. It also made us feel “safer” since everyone then knows each other and can look out for each other. Here, we’ve been advised against doing so, in this more “reserved” culture. So the only people we are meeting are foreigners like ourselves.

But, our company may have some opportunities for us to move to Leuven, which I think will help a lot. I hear a lot of good things about it, so fingers remain crossed!

"I would prefer a “cleaner” with a diploma than a “diplomelor” cleaner!"

Cleaner with a diploma of a "cleaner"? Sure wonderful. Also united into the trade union who demands higher salary like it happened in Amsterdam last summer(not everything about Holland is bad you know)

But I don't need cleaner with a diploma in astronomy or molecular chemistry; unless he or she also has good references about cleaning jobs of has a diploma of cleaner as well.
I have an experience- I need a cleaner for my apartment in Amsterdam twise a week and looking for a candidate right now. Student who do part time cleaning jobs or unemployed academicals are the worst. Best are people with a few years of cleaning experience without any other ambition but cleaning.
My former girlfriend is a professional cleaner and she does it for few years already without any other ambitious-I guess she is good because she has Lot's of offers.

W.W. corp have you been in any otehr metropolitain big city's? I mean Brussels is not even half a tough as let's say Toronto, London, Paris or NY, but seems it is too much for you.

Quote:

W.W. corp have you been in any otehr metropolitain big city's? I mean Brussels is not even half a tough as let's say Toronto, London, Paris or NY, but seems it is too much for you.

************************************

Yup. Been all there and done that. Have walked to my hotel from clubs/parties in the wee hours of the morning - many times in New York and once even in Bangkok - and never had any trouble.

Well you seem to have some bad luck in Brussels then. I am in Brussels intensively and walked a lot at night; it is generally safer place then most big cities.
Amsterdam, which is also generally safer then most USA ciies is much tougher then Brusselsin that aspect.

Yup. Been all there and done that. Have walked to my hotel from clubs/parties in the wee hours of the morning - many times in New York and once even in Bangkok - and never had any trouble
_______________________________________

Give me a break, will you ?

Try parts of LA or Washington DC next time. NY streets have become relatively safer just since 9/11. That too just Manhatten.

I think you need a change of attitude more than a change of city.

Were you born in heaven by any chance ?

Hi, I'm really sad to read some of the things on this post. I just want to say that I have lived in some pretty rough areas around Paris (RER D anyone ?) and regularly go to the Gare du Midi, du Nord and Scharbeek and Ithe only problems I have had are with smelly, unwashed and drunk "Europeans" ! And I'm a young blond-blue eyed american gal with an american accent ! I am often alone on the tram and have never felt unsafe. I agree that there is a problem with these North African youths but I know North Africa well and the type of behaviour you describe is unacceptable there. More recent immigrants distance themselves from the ones born and raised in Europe. So what does that tell us ? Maybe that the problem has stemmed here ? And that just maybe, we have some responsability ? And as Bourdieu said, when you have no dignity left, as a man all you have left is your perception of masculinity. I think Europe is faced with a challenge and instead of giving into fear and hate maybe we should try to understand the root of the problem by listening and then acting to do something about it. We are all collectively responsible, that's citizenship ! And if there are tough measures to be taken, let's do so but the fault doesn't only lie at the feet of these young boys.

Quote:

... And I'm a young blond-blue eyed american gal with an american accent ! ...

************************************

Gorgeous ! <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif"> hehe
(please don’t mind my flirting manner <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">, I think it’s my middle-eastern blood, sorry can’t help it <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">hehe).

Anyway, that was suggestive: you think YOU are beautiful, so do I (ask Bush what is meant by this latter: you or me? <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif"> )

Seriously, really glad to see that many Americans don’t see things in just Black & White. You even defend the “cousins” more than me, thanks <img src="../images/emoticons/ysmile.gif">, overoptimistic!
New in Belgium?