I checked both threads on H1N1 and there is nothing specific (at least recent to Klink's decision to vaccinate under 5's)

Anyway I received the letter this afternoon. I have already read as much as my brain can absorb in the last week and am still non the wiser. I have a 3 year old and a (nearly) 2 year old.

So now I have found out that I have to take the kids next week (as the alternative date we will be on Xmas vacation) if we want to get them vaccinated

After reading I have boiled it down to (sorry if this sounds too simplistic)

• a. vaccinate and trust that the "available information" will stand and there will be no detrimental effects from vaccination this strain of flu and especially in such a young age group
• b. don't vaccinate and try to minimise the risk of them getting into contact (impossible to prevent totally of course with playgroup, shopping etc) and so getting infected - or if infected then hope that the symptoms do not require hospitalisation etc

At the moment it feels like a real no win situation because of all the different and conflicting info that is available out there on the net

Therefore I am pretty sure that I'm not the only expat that is going through the same thing. My huisarts is not interested in discussion or alleviating concerns

Therefore how many other parents are facing this decision now, and what are your plans (and why)?

Hi!

I actually had both of my children vaccinated against both the seasonal flu and H1N1. It was simple, neither one had any side effects... not even a sore arm. I have a nursing background and the things I'm reading in the Dutch media are appaling. I can't believe nurses here are refusing the vaccine. I feel it's very ignorant and putting people who are in a high risk group, at greater risk.

Our huisarts was also advising against the H1N1 vaccine. I have no idea why. The vaccine has been tested and unless you're allergic to eggs, there haven't been any serious side effects. We had to really push to get our children vaccinated. Sometimes if you read too much on the web, you'll make yourself crazy. I wouldn't really put much trust in what you read on the web.. unless it's from a trusted source like the CDC or the NIH (national institute of health).

For us, we made the decision to vaccinate because we didn't want to risk our children getting really sick from it. You never know, for one person, it might be mild, but for the next, it might be very serious. It's so hard to keep small children from putting things in their mouths, or getting coughed on or keeping them home from school in the hopes they don't get sick. For us, we didn't want to worry about it. I have a nursing backgroun, so I'm not opposed to vaccinations. I don't think they harm children or adults, so for me, I wasn't worried about side effects.

Good luck with your decision. As an expat, it's hard to get information from Dutch huisarts. I find it very frustrating at times.

Again, good luck with everything! And stay healthy!

i had the shot and my 6 year old had the shot. we are both on the first priority list. i will get my 3 year old vaccinated too, but couldn't do it at the same time as we had ours as he needs to get his through the consultatiebureau and not the huisarts. beaurocracy everywhere.

i read up on it. and decided it's the right way to go. my kids school has already had confirmed cases of H1N1 with hospitalisations for more than one kid. It makes sense, to me, to get this done for them.

the methodology of creating the vaccine is the same as they use every year to create the yearly flu vaccine, that contains different flu strains each year. i have been getting that shot for a few years now and my 6 year old for two years now.

personally, i think all the fuss is due to westerners being way too used to good health and no epidemics/pandemics. try living in a non first world country, see a few illnesses get out of hand, and your mind will soon understand the importance of vaccination as a prevention. personally, i had almost all available vaccinations within 24 hours of birth. things in the western world are safer, so the kids can wait a bit longer to get them. however, the increase in parents skipping vaccinations is going to bite them later. there have been a few mini measles epidemics thanks to people skipping vaccinations.

overall, there is a high chance that a healthy person will survive the flu with no more than a few days of feeling really bad. however, at risk groups may not be so lucky and the propensity for the under 4's to become more seriously ill with this strain than other flu strains seems to weigh strongly on the side of vaccinating them along with the other at risk groups.

the injection contains a milky coloured fluid and it burns as it is injected into your arm and the arm can feel sore for a few days around the puncture mark. other than that, it seems fine. i have heard parents say their kids came down with flu within a couple of days of getting the vaccination, however i suspect that those kids had already picked up the infection and it was most likely another strain of flu anyway.

however, it is up to each person to decide for themselves what to do. and no matter what the decision, if the worst happens, the parent will blame themself. if they don't get the vaccine and their kid gets seriously ill, they will blame themselves. if the do get the vaccine and there are side effects, they will blame themselves. if nothing happens, regardless of whether they got the shot or not, they will feel fine.

good luck making your decision.

Yeap - this is the lot of a parent; the most difficult and frustrating job in the whole world (but with it's own unique rewards too).

I am worried about a peculiar thing, which is not commented anywhere, what happens if you get the vaccination and contract the virus immediately after that, will it not make even more dangerous to have a contraction of live virus while a weakend virus from the vaccine is already in your system and immunity is still not developed?

You are right, Huisarts prefer not to talk about the topic, and advised us against getting vaccinated. As a parent, I am furious at the Dutch Health system, while they ordered good enough vaccines for everybody times two, the health minister took his own time to declare the under 5's as priority. And when huisarts started vaccinating under 5's since they had enough vaccines laying around, he even threatened to sue them (bcoz he wanted vaccination to kids two weeks later as per his plans), damn you, foolish beurocracy and stupid followers. What are they going to do with those millions of shots after the season?

dont forget, they havent recieved even half the doses from the suppliers yet, and the first ones to arrive have been given to the usual at risk groups. They just cant give it to everyone and there isnt enough yet to give to all children either, they have had to make some decisions on priorities. If everyone trotted up to their huisarts and had their kids vaccinated that wouldnt be fair if the supply ran out and other at risk people missed out, or other kids whose parents didnt get into the huisarts in time. SOmething had to be organised to keep it fair. It just sucks that it has taken an extra couple of weeks.

Obviously there are also big differences between huisarts - only this morning mine advised that my son should be vaccinated, told me she had been vaccinated already and that there shouldnt be any concerns about side effects - the potential side effects of the flu on small children is much more concerning.

I dont know either what happens if you already have the flu but no symptoms when you get vaccinated, or if you get it a few days after the vaccination. Logic tells me that its not going to be any worse from having the dead virus already preparing your immune system to deal with the live one...

Here is a very straight forward explanation: http://trueslant.com/fpaulwilson/2009/09/1...e-h1n1-vaccine/

The way the immune system works is that if you contract something your body immediately starts making antibodies to fight it. The injection doesn't contain live virus, only dead fragments. Your body doesn't know this though, so it starts gearing up to fight what it thinks is an invader. Should you come into contact with the virus immediately afterwards your body will already have a head start in fighting off the infection.

There is a lot of ridiculous misinformation/pseudoscience out there about medicine in general. I've been doing research on digestive issues that I have and getting a straight answer is next to impossible unless you have access to scientific journals. Some are available online for free but a lot isn't, unfortunately. And even if it was a lot of people would still go to the quacks because it makes them feel good. Like someome else said, stick to the CDC and NIH, or like type websites. There is no giant conspiracy, drug makers lose money making vaccines, they don't cause autism and except for rare reactions, especially in those with mitochondrial disorders, you're safe getting them.

I have to say, I have never in my life seen so much distrust of the medical profession and the medical industry as I have here, and particularly recently with the pandemic and vaccination programme. Clearly its not just a dutch thing, since there are so many 'conspiracy' theories roaming the net, however I find it very surprising that in a modern western country with a health system accessible to all and good education, that there can be so much paranoia and misinformation. I have to say I blame it on the medical professionals themselves, seems like (at least here in the NL) that doctors have worked to maintain themselves as being the 'only' source of information for patients, they all seem to use the 'no knowlegde is good' idea because (and I even had a huisarts say this to me) they think that patients are hypochondriacs and if they know too much about an illlness they will be sure to have it.... There is a culture of with holding information here. Also they are not proactive, my dutchie (and a number of others I know of) will only go to the doctor are a very very last resort, not because they are in denial of their illness, but because they know its a waste of time until they are at deaths door. Its frustrating, and I am sure the outcome is what we see today - even trained nurses role modelling fear of vaccinations because of their belief in old wifes takes and myths about how they work. Its scandalous.

I think its also linked to the most recent phenomenon in which no one seemed to want to publically admit that they might want to get the flu injection, they somehow seemed to want to prove that they werent scared or paranoid about getting the flu, that it was in some way shameful to say you wanted to be vaccinated because then people might think you were a hypochondriac (just like the doctors). Its a bit like the first dentist I saw here, telling me only watjes wanted anesthetic injections for getting a tooth filling.... And the notion that things like painkillers shouldnt be taken for headache because it doesnt 'solve the cause' of the headache (what!? the cause of the headache is pain....) Yes I have actaully been told this by a dutch friend. All the ads on TV for medications all focus on things that 'get to the source' of the problem, other countries worry about getting rid of the symptoms! (ie pain relief!)

Ok its a bit of a rave, but its observation I have made over the years that have culminated in my current analysis of the reluctance to immunise - belayed by the fact that apparently all these people who 'say' its only for stupid people who get sucked into this whole pandemic nonsense, are actually flocking there in droves to get their kids innoculated.

I agree completely. The amount of sheer stupid amazes me. I mean, I don't 100% trust the medical field or doctors but that's because I do my own research and I know if they're feeding me a line. On a personal level this attitude angers me no end. I have ADHD and take meds for it. Recently the organization No Kidding! came out with a campaign saying that parents who gave their kids medicine for ADHD were abusing their children. The amount of support for the campaign DUMBFOUNDED me. (Not to mention they were getting their info fromt he Scientologists) Certainly there's room for criticism, but an ignorant statement like that does SO MUCH harm for a lot of people who really need the meds. And the fact is, unless you follow the developments and do your research you know NOTHING, really, about the disorder. The way people can reel off off the cuff, one-sided sound bites without understanding the context of them is unreal. Here's a reaction in Dutch. http://www.ouders.nl/mdiv2009-adhd-nokidding.htm

Yes, my husband hasn't been to a doctor in many, many years. Sometimes I think he must think I'm a hypochondriac, but if I need medical help I'm gonna go get it. A coworker took a week off of work for a broken toe because he was in pain. When I asked why the doctor didn't give him anything for it he said, "Oh, I have naproxen but I don't want to take it and get addicted." WHAT? Naproxen is an NSAID, it isn't addictive. It's like taking an aspirin!

Perhaps it's a cultural thing where some Dutch make a blanket judgement and fail to see the nuances? I've seen this over and over applied to other topics as well. Not that it doesn't happen elsewhere, but it seems to be a national pasttime here.