My husband (he is Dutch) considers to take a job in the UK. I have an indefinite residence permit for NL independent of my husband as I've already worked here and wonder what will happen if I go to UK?

What are the options and my rights if for instance we decide to return after 1 year back to NL? What will be my residence status in NL and how long would it take to regain a Dutch residence permit when we return? How can I travel to Europe and visit Schengen area if we move to UK since UK is not part of Schengen? Is there a way for me to retain Dutch residence status as EU citizen's partner who goes to work to another EU country and takes his non-EU partner along?

Hope someone could help me with these questions.

Thank you in advance.

Umm too many questions but ....basically, if you have a Dutch Permanent residence permit - and you leave the country for more than 6 months .. you will lose residency.

Of course, they have to figure out that you have actually left the country so if you maintain an address here in The NL and file taxes etc ... just as if you are still here .. they will not know.

Second, if you have a Dutch Permanent residence permit ... you can also apply for an EU Permanent residence permit. (They bunde both together now, and I have this.)

When you have the EP Perm permit, you can live and work anywhere in the EU. (You will have to contact the immigration folks in the UK and switch resident permits etc. So ask them how it works there).

I am assuming that the UK is part of the EU .. as I know there are some exceptions with The UK.

Lastly, if your partner is Dutch and you do lose residency by moving to the UK, he can sponsor you if you returm to The NL. (Only .. you will no longer be independant so if something goes wrong in your relationship .... you will have lost residency here and unable to get it through him .. so you are SOL.) I always advise women to have their OWN PAPERS independant of their man .. because the future is never so certain.

I don't think the EU permanent resident thing works for the UK since they opt out of all the EU immigration rules.

Yes, that's what I was afraid of. I knew there was something funny about the EU and the UK.

So to the OP ... your best option is to 'move in' with a friend. That way you can register yourself at that address at the gemeente. Then have any bills etc sent to that address and basically pretend you are living there.

Then in a year or two when you really move back here ... re-register at your new address and that will be the end of it.

Otherwise, if you move to the UK and they learn about it, after 6 months ... you will definitely lose your Permanent Dutch residency - as there is no other way around this.

Yup! Can you say, "have your cake and eat it too?".

Are you sure about that? I have the same kind of problem. I was happily assuming tha my EU residency permit would save me lots of problems

I know the EU thingy is funny in the UK .. I just don't know all the details.

Best to contact the IND and ask if the UK is part of the EU so that you can live/work in the UK with your EU permanent permit.

No, the UK are part of the European Union, but they decided not to adopt all its laws. Denmark and Ireland are in a similar boat.
If you're an European national, you don't have to worry you have freedom to live there. But if you're a non-EU national and hold a permanent residency card, I don't believe they accept it. I don't have time to do a proper search to back myself up however, just my memory - so don't trust what I'm saying Someone smarter will come along and correct me if I'm wrong.

I came across this link a while ago whilst looking into the issue for someone else. Not an official website and they have a commercial service on offer so treat with care.

http://www.diyexpat.com/permits/eupermresFAQ.html

The more official legal text is here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUri...003L0109:en:NOT

It seems that the UK is exempt from the implications of an EU Residence Permit. So your permit is not valid there.

Thanks Taco, that's exactly what I was on about. Good to see my memory hasn't failed me yet!

Hi all,

Well, the responses so far got it half-right, at least. Yes, it is absolutely true, the UK (as well as Ireland and Denmark) have opted out of any EU legislation regarding the independent immigration of third-country (i.e. non-EU) nationals, including Directive 2003/109 which provides for this 'EU permanent resident' status [they cannot opt out of legislation regarding third-country nationals who are family members of EU citizens, though, which is a different kettle of fish]. So you cannot derive any rights from your Dutch 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' permit in the UK; you will simply have to apply for a permit in the UK as the spouse of an EU citizen, which should be relatively painless.

HOWEVER, at the same time you don't need to lie to the Dutch authorities to keep your Dutch permit. You only lose a Dutch 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' permit if you spend more than 12 months outside the territory of the European Union, the European Economic Area or Switzerland. If you are living in another EU/EEA/CH country, but outside the Netherlands, then you only lose your Dutch permit after 6 years (the reasoning for that is that you probably would have acquired a permanent residence permit in your new country of residence by then). [Source: article 22(1)(a) Vreemdelingenwet] The fact that the UK does not recognize your Dutch 'EU' residence permit does not make the UK any less a member of the EU, as far as the Dutch are concerned. When you go to de-register yourself at the gemeente, simply tell them that you are moving to the UK (so that they put on your GBA record: 'vertrokken naar het Verenigd Koninkrijk'), and your Dutch residence status will be safe for 6 years.

Jeremy Bierbach, LLM
www.immigrate.nl

Hi all,

Many thanks for all your help on sharing thoughts on this!

Jeremy, will ask my husband to look further into this and hope we could work it all out!

Jeremy

Just wanted to quicky confirm with you one thing, do I then need to request an EU-langdurige ingezetene residence permir prior to moving to UK to be able to follow that route or I can just keep the Dutch residence permit and apply for a UK one as a EU national's partner?

In any case you will need to apply for a UK residence permit as an EU national's partner, because whatever kind of Dutch residence permit you have, it won't have any legal effect in the UK.

But as to whether you specifically need to have a Dutch permanent residence permit with the tag 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' in order not to lose it-- good question, I just took a look at the law to make sure. As long as it is a 'verblijfsvergunning regulier voor onbepaalde tijd', either with or without the tag (i.e., either granted under the 'Dutch rules' or under the 'EU rules'), you will not lose it for 6 years if you are only moving to another EU country.

Keeping your Dutch permit has its advantages to you for traveling around Schengen, by the way; with your UK 'EU family member' residence permit, you are technically only guaranteed access to other EU countries (including the ones in Schengen) if your husband is accompanying you or if you are on your way to meet him (although in practice, this is not really enforced, because you can always say you are on your way to meet him). With your Dutch permit, on the other hand, you have an independent right to travel around Schengen. (I must add, of course, in both cases: together with your passport, because this has already been a common misunderstanding on these boards that all you need to travel around the EU is a residence permit if you are a non-EU citizen.)

it self destructs in 5 seconds

Thanks a lot, Jeremy! Seems like the problem has been solved, though I guess I will just apply for the EG addition to be more flexible.

Hi Jeremy

Have applied for the EG residence permit and today received a hefty bill for it to be paid. Wonder whether this is normal to be charged that much for changing my onbepaalde tijd residence permit into EG one? Are there any exceptions for the partners of Dutch citizens so that EG request should be processed free of charge? Am I already not paying enough taxes as well as my husband who should be able to have a foreign partner? Hope you would have the answer to these queries. Thanks so much!

Hi LaBelle,

Yup, the fee just got raised on November 15-- from € 201 to € 401. But you are lucky that you received the acceptgiro to pay the fee before December 31, because if you pay it before that date, your application will be complete before January 1, 2010, when you would suddenly be required to take an integration exam as well to get or upgrade your onbepaalde tijd permit. And, as I have expressed the opinion in other threads, getting the EG-langdurig ingezetene status means that you can never be made to integrate (disclaimer: my point of view on that has yet to go before a judge, although I'm working on it in other cases).

Unfortunately, you can't get a break on the fee. The rationale behind the fees is ostensibly to cover the operating expenses that the IND has in processing your application. However, it is generally known that the real reason for the Dutch government raising any fees is to discourage migrants from getting any kind of stronger status and more rights than they already have. The fact that you are married to a Dutch citizen, in fact, is all the more reason for them to want to discourage you, since Dutch citizens having foreign partners is generally considered to be disadvantageous to the Dutch economy, you and your husband's income and taxpaying notwithstanding. So you can consider this hefty fee to be the final hurdle-- there won't be any more after this one!

I should add, however, that my colleague Prawo (who posts on these forums as well) has speculated that a recent decision by the European Court of Justice might prohibit the Netherlands from charging more than € 41 for this type of permit. When you get your permit, I would wholeheartedly recommend that you approach him to appeal the decision for you to the extent that you should get a refund of the difference!

Hi Jeremy

Thanks a lot for your help! Indeed lots of inconsistencies in the law and a great disappointment to have to pay double the fee for being late by 2 weeks! Will try to fisrt get arranged the EG permit to smoothen the move to the UK, and if time allows will also look into refund of the fee. Let me know if the cases that you and your colleague are working re the fee refund worked out, as the Dutch state is pretty stiff on such things!

Hi Jeremy,

We have recived the following reaction from IND regarding our leave to UK query and my flexibility to travel to NL. Looks like even with EG langdurig ingezetene I won't be allowed to enter NL and should I keep my current onbepaalde tijd Dutch residence permit I would have to give it up the moment I deregister from Gemeente with having to request a Scegen visa either way? What do you think of such reaction? Thanks a lot for your help!

U heeft in uw e-mail van 20 november enkele vragen gesteld over het vertrek uit Nederland en verblijf in Engeland. Zodra uw vrouw zich uit de Gemeentelijke Basisadministratie (GBA) schrijft dan vervalt het recht op de verblijfsvergunning en zal deze worden ingetrokken. Dit hoeft geen ramp te zijn aangezien u wel binnen de Europese Unie blijft. Engeland heeft weliswaar het Schengenverdrag niet ondertekend wat inhoudt dat er voor elke reis neer het Europese vasteland een visum moet worden aangevraagd, maar zij heeft de mogelijkheid om na terugkomst naar Nederland haar verblijf te continueren. Op basis van de verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd met daarbij de aantekening langdurig ingezetene derdelander mag zij maximaal 6 jaar buiten Nederland verblijven en binnen de Europese Unie (EU) en verliest zij daarbij haar verblijfsrecht niet. Wanneer zij deze vergunning niet heeft is er nog geen man overboord. Op basis van het feit dat zij in een EU land verblijft met u, kan zij worden beschouwd als zijnde een EU onderdaan en op basis daarvan makkelijk verblijf krijgen eenmaal terug in Nederland.
Om het verblijf voort te zetten wanneer u weer terugkomt, is het dus wel raadzaam om de vergunning voor onbepaalde tijd met de aantekening langdurig ingezetene derdelander aan te vragen. Doet uw vrouw dit niet of kan zij deze vergunning niet krijgen dan kan zij altijd op basis van het EU verdrag terug komen naar Nederland en op basis van een toetsing EU gemeenschapsrecht verblijf in Nederland realiseren.

Hi there,

I am wondering if you asked the IND the right question? I have quoted the IND's response below and bolded the parts which are essentially identical with what I already advised. The part I have italicized before the first bolded sentence, however, is incorrect for your situation-- it would only be the case that deregistering from the gemeente would lose you your right to stay in the Netherlands if you had a verblijfsvergunning voor bepaalde tijd. Furthermore, although it is advisable to get the tag 'EG-langdurig ingezetene' before you go (as you have), it is by no means a requirement to be able to keep your right to stay when you move elsewhere in the EU, as is implied in the second bolded sentence. The law is very clear: for any verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd (whether it has the EG tag or not), you will keep that right for up to six years as long as you are living in the EU.

To make things more confusing, the IND interspersed (correct) advice about your rights as the spouse of an EU citizen, which is a different matter altogether. As long as you are with your husband, it is true, you will be able to move back to the Netherlands with him after living in the UK (that will activate what is called the 'Belgium route' situation for you); but I suspect you were more interested in knowing what your independent rights were.

Best,
Jeremy

PS: There are not yet as any cases about people trying to get the fee reduced for the EG-langdurig ingezetene permit, as the decision from the EU Court of Justice that implies you can do this is very recent. So if you want to be a trailblazer, I suggest you go ahead and try appealing it ;-) Contact Gart Adang at http://www.kleerekooper.nl/ .

Hi Jeremy

Thanks a lot for your response, sounds encouraging. I am expecting the response from IND re my EG request by latest mid-Feb and once I have it (which I hope would be the case), I will be in touch with your contact to be a trial case for trying to get a partial reimbursement of the fee.

Good weekend,
A.