What do people of African descent think of Zwarte Pete?

Here is my opinion! Zwarte Pete is offensive, demeaning and insulting to the people of African descent. This practice was created in 1850 when slavery was extant in the Netherlands. Zwarte Pete is a reminiscent of slavery and white supremacy.

Some people might argue that this is a Dutch culture and has nothing do with black people or slavery. This is not true, it has everything do with black people, it portrays black people as buffoons and subservient. If black people are so comfortable with this insensitivity practice, how come no black willing to take part in it?

The Netherlands is different from what it used to be in the 18th century; today the country is a multicultural society. I urge the Dutch people to immediately stop this shameful act.

This is the problem - the Dutch seem reticent to accept that in a multicultural society, it is not merely tolerance that creates good "samenleving" - there must be empathy and understanding of issues and perceptions, particularly on what (even subliminal) messages these stereotypes send to children. I doubt vaudeville performers who "blacked up" back in 20s America (a practice which occurred in the UK even in the 70s) recognized (or cared about) the offense it caused, but it took a lot of protest (and violence) to change things - at the same time, the Dutch are understandably stubborn about their traditions, even their language - they don't want to change because there is outside pressure to do so - I feel like they look at the issue as foreigners telling them what they should do, rather than trying to understand the sociological impact such behaviour creates in a multicultural society and how, even if it is not "slecht bedoeld", it is not appropriate in these times. They never look at multiculturalism as a 2-way street- it's the foreigners who need to conform to their old rules, rather than creating new rules for the new situation.

They did rename their "negerzoenen" to "zoenen", so maybe it's slowly sinking in (although I noticed one manufacturer packaging them in boxes of 9 and calling them "Negen Zoenen"!!)

Are you of African decent?

From my totally unscientific study, many black folk living here and other more pressing things to worry about. Getting rid of ZP seems to be the crusade of foreign white folk more than anyone else. Good old white liberal guilt.

Actually, if you spend some time researching the subject, you will find that the origins of zwarte piet are somewhat unclear, but one of the most common stories is that he is actually black due to having to go down the chimney to deliver the presents for the kids and has nothing to do with his natural skin colour. On the other hand, if you do assume he is of black skin colour, he doesn't in any way seem to be treated as a slave. The relationship is merely of employer-employee type and he assists sinterklas. Therefore, I think that before you can get too upset about him being black, someone would need to be 100% sure of his origins.

Dear friends,

it seems obvious to me that there are many people who do not believe their Dutch hosts repeated statement that this Piet character has somehow managed to blacken his face because of the soot he [and yes, she] often find in going down chimneys. Or rather found in 19th century chimneys.
My question is: "Why?"
Why do you not believe them? Do you seriously think that most Dutch people really are both liars and rascists? I am of colour myself [of Nigerian blood], and I have no problem believing the Dutch! This constant bickering must be very annoying for those Dutch members of this otherwise entertaining forum..indeed they may even be going 'blue in the face'* [as we say in England] with the annoyance of having to defend their customs to one and all!


Les

* I am of course joking my friends!

That is so right.

Hee hee! My point exactly.

I think it soooo funny that all these 'good' White folk are soooo upset by the depiction of ZP. Every year, they have these exact same rediculous conversations about how bad the Dutch make fun of the Blacks while btw ignoring the legacy of slavery with their OWN ancestors from their OWN countries.

And if they are from Amerikkka .. ahh they just need to shut up about this topic. Hee hee!

I am of African decent - one of the few that has not neen chased off this board and I am probably the only one that admits to being Black. Why is that, I wonder? Yes, it was a shock at first .. but after I understood more about the culture, it became clear to me that ZP has nothing to do with what happened in other countries. Nothing.

I have close friendship with Black Dutch people too and .. they don't care either. It's the INTENT behind ZP that makes the difference. DUH!

And I am a member of 2 Professional Black organizationms here (how many people can say that? ) and this topic is NULL!
I just wish all these 'good' White folks from alll the other countries would get over their own guilt ... so that they can stop projecting all that baggage on to the Dutch.

Just another excuse to hate the Dutch IMO. (shrugs)

Get over it.

Well, looking at his profile I'd say so...

The major problem with this is that he doesn't look anything like he came down a chimney. I mean how many times would you have to go down a chimney to get completely covered in brown shoe polish (or whatever the substance is), bright red lip stick and wearing an afro wig?!

i agree. this was explained to me by my hubby..they're Sinterklass' assistants, blackened from the chimney trip. as to red lipstick and afro do, i have no idea (i know that they are from spain supposedly). what i find offensive is when after all this event, we go to some pub and find sinterklaas there drinking (and my daughter saw it which bothered her afterwards).

This is wrong and perhaps even disinformation.

The origin of the "blackness" of ZP is perfectly clear. It started with a book written by Jan Schenkman in 1850. Here is an illustration:

http://www.dbnl.nl/tekst/sche039stni01_01/index.htm

Schenkman got the idea for this "look" from 19th c. US traditions that are now considered totally racist and have been abandoned in most of the world.

Before Schenkman, Sint's helper did not wear blackface at all.

And as for the "story" told to childen, if ZP is from Spain and if ZP is black because of the soot:
1. why maintain the story in a society with no chimneys?
2. why is the face usually painted black and not just marked with soot?
3. why do some ZPs speak with a Surinamese accent?

A child who is two years old doesn't care if the paint is black. No, this is not about the story told to children at all. This is about adults and the stories they tell themselves.

This not a Dutch v. expat thing, because some Dutch people don't like it either. They have tried to change it in the past.

The problem is that right-wing Dutch people (Dutch people who have long ago given up klederdracht, Jesus and every other vestige of their Dutch heritage) are using this tradition as a way of accusing people of not being "true" Dutchmen.

Every Dutch person alive knows that this tradition is considered racist. The real racism is not really ZP, but the fact that so many Dutch people would hang so tenaciously on to it as if their national identity were dependent on it. All they have left is the colour orange and the colour white.

This is why it is not innocent. Maybe it's done innocently in some places, but it's this remnant of people who desperately cling to this race-related thing as a symbol of ethnic identity.

Quite a few Dutch people would openly deride any ZP who didn't wear blackface. "You've caved in!" "You're not being truly yourself!" "You're a fake!"

Look at the Dutch wikipedia article on it. Many of them find any debate about ZP completely intolerable. It's beyond discussion for them. God is dead, and good riddance, but by all that is holy do not f u c k with ZP.

Black Dutch people merely put up with this. And of course they notice immediately when it slips into overt racism, eg ZP making monkey noises, adopting faux black attributes, or acting in overtly stupid ways. Surinamers know perfectly well that these ZPs are meant to represent black people (as do Dutch people). But in the end it doesn't really matter what Surinamers say, because if they were to say anything, they would just be dismissed as "not Dutch". They know this.

The chimney story is basically subterfuge created to confuse the argument, "maybe he is, maybe he isn't" in order to continue with the tradition. Zwarte Piet is a Moor caricature, not unlike others found in various southern European countries. And seeing how Sinterklaas comes from Spain, which seems to me the origin of any confusion since St. Nikolas was Turkish, it should be obvious why Piet is dressed the way he is.

There you go. There has never been any structural kind of slavery in the Netherlands itself.
Zwarte Piet might be reminiscent of slavery to you. But it is not to the Dutch.

You have just proven that waering blackface is ok in The Netherlands. You are a genius. Here are two celebratory images, congratulations on your victory.

Who told you that?
Did you just happen to miss the big multi-culturalism debate of 5-6 years ago?

Just to give you a quick recap: huge majority of the Dutch political class DO NOT see this country as multicultural. This includes even the leaders of the social democrates (PvdA). The message to the people of foreign descent ('allochtoonen') was: assimilate or leave.

Lets just face facts that its all a bit wrong and in any other 'civilised' society 'blacking up' would not only be frowned upon but would probably be illegal.

time to pack this in ... whether it a tradition or not..

I wonder if the same discussions would be made if black people started whitening up their faces & wearing red lipstick and a blond wig... I know theirs a merky past back there and that we have to, or should, learn from things, but we also shouldn't let it hold us back from having a bit of fun.
What I do find strange is that sinterklaas is always a white painfully ill looking person and zp is always a white person with a blackened face and red lipstick with afro wig... anyone would think that these are the only races of people in this country.

Very interesting to hear you say that, any links you'd recommend to check on the topic?

On a related note, it always cracks me up when you hear someone talk about how tolerant they are of minorities. 'Tolerant' is such a terrible choice of word. I feel like some people really mean it too...

Yes, but Al Jolson (the second foto) and his creatues (supporters) ... have NOTHING to do with the Dutch culture.

Nothing.

You are just comparing pictures of ZP to pictures of Al Jolson's depiction of Black face (which was a completely abhorrent characterization DESIGNED to harm Black people) for effect - but it's a poor comparison.

Yes, the links you see today about Al Joson try to clean up his 'act' ... but it was very, very different back in 'the day'.

Did you learn history in school? If not, let me educate you. The Dutch people were the first European to industrialize slavery in the World. They were the first people to transport slaves to the New World/ America for exchange of goods. So own it.

Not true. The Spanish and the Portuguese were slave traders long before the Dutch.

So you do know that the Dutch were slave traders... as for the pioneers of this atrocity, i'd suggest you do some research and then we can continue this conversion on another level...

When did anyone deny the Dutch were slave traders? They were. But they weren't the pioneers, the inventors, the biggest, etc. Not that that makes it less worse. But nobody living now is responsible for what happened then.

Some research? Ok.
The Dutch total share of 5 percent in world slave trade is still undisputed (but yes: it's 5 percent too much).
You can read this number in P.C. Emmer's The Dutch Slave Trade 1500-1850, the most comprehensive study on this subject ever written, and in my possession. Review can be found here:

The Dutch Slave Trade review

Much more important in the ZP debate is the fact that there were no slaves in Holland, and thus Dutch, contrary to for example Americans, have a much different perception of a black or blackened person than for example Americans.

This is nonsense. It ignores 40 years of heavy black immigration into the Netherlands.

You don't speak for the Dutch win. Please stop pretending that you do. There are many Dutch people who don't agree with you.

Thank you very much for the compliment. I am glad that you now understand the difference between the cultural/historical backgrounds of Zwarte Piet and Al Jolson, and between the Netherlands and the US. Indeed Zwarte Piet is perfectly ok in the Netherlands.
I wouldn't call it my victory though. It rather is a victory of reason.

No, they both actually have their origins in the same tradition. ZP was borrowed by Schenkman from US sources, win.

You mean people like these?




I have asked you for years now to substantiate this claim, my friend. Will you manage this year at last?

But ZP has no connotation with slavery. Because unlike in the USA slavery didn't exist in the Netherlands.

This is a picture of Sinterklaas surrounded by tiny Pieten right? Tiny, soot covered chimney Pieten...

Nope. These children don't need soot.
And the same for these:

Confused about what exactly you're trying to say with these pictures...

...like the happy children of Theresienstadt

Good blacks who know their place....

Yes but how many people really were involved? Was it understood in any way, shape of form among the population at large?

In the US South, racism, slavery, violence is ingrained into the culture. It touched every white person from cradle to grave. And racism in the North was (is?) horrific.

For an American to be consider ZP as slightly important, when there is much extreme racism in the USA RIGHT NOW just blows my mind.

Are the Dutch morons on the issue of ZP? Yes, its clearly distasteful and racist. But these people do not see it that way. There is no way to make a river run upstream. This indignant shock over ZP is just another excuse to bash the Dutch.

Its racist, yes. Its also not important. Live and let live, let this change organically.

In last year's ZP discussion you mentioned Auschwitz as one of the atrocities committed by the Dutch: http://forum.expatica.com/lofiversion/inde...108079-200.html And now you are comparing black children celebrating Sinterklaas with a concentration camp. Pathetic.

Look Stone has an agenda. It colors all his posts.

40 years of immigration is not anything close enough to create real understanding, IMHO.

It seems we agree mkitchell.

No, you misinterpreted that post. My point (which was perfectly clear) was that the Dutch are still trying to process the aftermath of colonialism, the Holocaust, slavery, etc. This is something the UK has done better.

And by the way: if I were a parent of one of the children shown in these posts, I would be furious. Do you have permission to show those children? Please do not show any more pictures of children. You should probably remove the ones that were posted above.

I didn't post any pictures.

Of course, after all the UK is an English speaking country.

Just as a proof of the fact that all Dutch childeren with any color love Zwarte Piet. To them Zwarte Piet is just their playful friend. And for good reasons. They haven't been infected by adult associations and fantasies of slavery.
Shall we keep it that way?

Thanks for your concern Stone, but the photos were taken from public school sites, and are free for use.

My dear friends,

This argument is now getting beyond the pail!
It is time [in my mind] for my good Dutch friends [pepe c, win, swamp zombie and any other dutch readers] to put our minds at rest once and for all!
Do you all [ Dutch only members]agree that ZP is NOT a caricature of a black person , but is a chimney sweep in need of some soap?
I am sure that once you can confirm this to the non-dutchies here, then we can finally lay this matter to rest, as there are surely more important matters to discuss!

Your friend

Les

He's coming... only a couple of days to go...



That's according to the official Sint In Amsterdam website, which has loads of wonderful pics of people enjoying themselves.





Make that 300,002, because we'll be cycling in especially to be part of it.

Anyone else going to be there..?

yet what its actually doing is establishing stereotypes and associations in young children that they will carry with them into adulthood. It will be one of the things that guides them and forms the background of their decision making and judgements of others when they are adults. Sure while theyre kids its all 'harmless fun', but they grow up with the idea that its okay to characterise people of another ethinicity as buffoons who cant be taken seriously. Take Wendy van Dijk as an example, and the number of people who think what she does is just 'funny' and anyone who finds it a form of humilation is just not thick skinned enough. Tja, maar het is niet slecht bedoeld hoor. Oh. So that makes it okay then...... Not

By the way win, do you really wait for this discussion every year? What do you do with the rest of your year while no one is discussing this and what keeps you coming back for it? Are you Sinterklaas????

If you wish to see him like a caricature, be my guest, friend. This is a free country after all.


He doesn't need any soap!
And please respect the fact that rose, black, brown, yellow and beige Dutch in general perceive Zwarte Piet as a playful friend, who brings them fun, pepernoten, and gifts.

[
Fully agreed. This Zwarte Piet debate hardly leaves us time to discuss soccer, whisky, and politics.