http://www.nu.nl/economie/2111575/vrouwen-...e-werkweek.html
http://www.scp.nl/Publicaties/Alle_publica..._g_een_probleem
Seventy per cent of Dutch women work. This is one of the highest levels of women participating in the workforce in Europe. Many of these women work in "small part-time jobs". However, women working part time who want to work longer hours are more often not succeeding in doing so. One out of five women who work less than 25 hours a week want to work longer, but less than half of them are able to make it happen. This is according to a publication by the "Social and Cultural Planning Office". The report's conclusion: it is possible for these women to start working longer hours, but it is not going to happen without effort. The report looked at the role of employers and getting husbands to work less or in different patterns.
Full Version: Women finding it difficult to work longer hours
QUOTE (stone @ Oct 29 2009, 09:43 AM) 
http://www.nu.nl/economie/2111575/vrouwen-...e-werkweek.html
http://www.scp.nl/Publicaties/Alle_publica..._g_een_probleem
Seventy per cent of Dutch women work. This is one of the highest levels of women participating in the workforce in Europe. Many of these women work in "small part-time jobs". However, women working part time who want to work longer hours are more often not succeeding in doing so. One out of five women who work less than 25 hours a week want to work longer, but less than half of them are able to make it happen. This is according to a publication by the "Social and Cultural Planning Office". The report's conclusion: it is possible for these women to start working longer hours, but it is not going to happen without effort. The report looked at the role of employers and getting husbands to work less or in different patterns.
http://www.scp.nl/Publicaties/Alle_publica..._g_een_probleem
Seventy per cent of Dutch women work. This is one of the highest levels of women participating in the workforce in Europe. Many of these women work in "small part-time jobs". However, women working part time who want to work longer hours are more often not succeeding in doing so. One out of five women who work less than 25 hours a week want to work longer, but less than half of them are able to make it happen. This is according to a publication by the "Social and Cultural Planning Office". The report's conclusion: it is possible for these women to start working longer hours, but it is not going to happen without effort. The report looked at the role of employers and getting husbands to work less or in different patterns.
nujij.nl has some interesting comments on this article. People complaining about the school system that basically requires kids to go home for lunch from primary school, men who dont participate enough in childcare, expectations and judgements about women in work, emancipation etc.
Sadly there are still apparently people around who think that expecting women to have careers is placing a 'mannelijk' expectation on women, there are a lot of childless women who also only work part time (feeding the notion that women dont want to work) . People still talk about this in relation to young children needing their mothers etc, but the discussion never seems to go into why more women dont return to full time work (as in other countries) once their children start school. I know there is a shortage of affordable afterschool childcare, but if there were enough demand wouldnt there be an increase in that (like elsewhere)? Personally I think young kids do benefit from having their mother or father caring for them most of the time (not all), but by the time they reach school age they are more than able (and benefit from) attending afterschool programmes with their peers for a couple of hours a day while their parents work.
the problem in the NL needs to be tackled from the roots however, and that is in the culture - the perception that working mothers are selfish, lazy, and bad mothers. It incredibly is a widespread idea in society here. Also the expectations of young girls is not changing, my daughter was surrounded by girls whose sole ambition (they even wrote this in all the 'vreindenboekjes) was that when they grow up they want to be a mother. I was shocked to see that and quite saddened. The two expections were one who wanted to be a teacher and a mother, and another who wanted to be a policewoman....
These expectations need to change. At least now in the Netherlands girls and women are getting well educated, its just a shame it hasnt carried over to higher involvement in the workplace.
QUOTE (clickit @ Oct 30 2009, 11:08 AM)
nujij.nl has some interesting comments on this article. People complaining about the school system that basically requires kids to go home for lunch from primary school, men who dont participate enough in childcare, expectations and judgements about women in work, emancipation etc.
Sadly there are still apparently people around who think that expecting women to have careers is placing a 'mannelijk' expectation on women, there are a lot of childless women who also only work part time (feeding the notion that women dont want to work) . People still talk about this in relation to young children needing their mothers etc, but the discussion never seems to go into why more women dont return to full time work (as in other countries) once their children start school. I know there is a shortage of affordable afterschool childcare, but if there were enough demand wouldnt there be an increase in that (like elsewhere)? Personally I think young kids do benefit from having their mother or father caring for them most of the time (not all), but by the time they reach school age they are more than able (and benefit from) attending afterschool programmes with their peers for a couple of hours a day while their parents work.
the problem in the NL needs to be tackled from the roots however, and that is in the culture - the perception that working mothers are selfish, lazy, and bad mothers. It incredibly is a widespread idea in society here. Also the expectations of young girls is not changing, my daughter was surrounded by girls whose sole ambition (they even wrote this in all the 'vreindenboekjes) was that when they grow up they want to be a mother. I was shocked to see that and quite saddened. The two expections were one who wanted to be a teacher and a mother, and another who wanted to be a policewoman....
These expectations need to change. At least now in the Netherlands girls and women are getting well educated, its just a shame it hasnt carried over to higher involvement in the workplace.
Sadly there are still apparently people around who think that expecting women to have careers is placing a 'mannelijk' expectation on women, there are a lot of childless women who also only work part time (feeding the notion that women dont want to work) . People still talk about this in relation to young children needing their mothers etc, but the discussion never seems to go into why more women dont return to full time work (as in other countries) once their children start school. I know there is a shortage of affordable afterschool childcare, but if there were enough demand wouldnt there be an increase in that (like elsewhere)? Personally I think young kids do benefit from having their mother or father caring for them most of the time (not all), but by the time they reach school age they are more than able (and benefit from) attending afterschool programmes with their peers for a couple of hours a day while their parents work.
the problem in the NL needs to be tackled from the roots however, and that is in the culture - the perception that working mothers are selfish, lazy, and bad mothers. It incredibly is a widespread idea in society here. Also the expectations of young girls is not changing, my daughter was surrounded by girls whose sole ambition (they even wrote this in all the 'vreindenboekjes) was that when they grow up they want to be a mother. I was shocked to see that and quite saddened. The two expections were one who wanted to be a teacher and a mother, and another who wanted to be a policewoman....
These expectations need to change. At least now in the Netherlands girls and women are getting well educated, its just a shame it hasnt carried over to higher involvement in the workplace.
Yes, I think that the whole perspective on women working outside the home needs to change. I work full time, have no children, and still have gotten funny looks from people who think I'm neglecting something. Huh? I think there needs to be more services such as household help as well as convincing men they need to do more. Even though I don't have children I find it stressful to have to take care of the house on top of working all week. I have a cleaning lady who comes in once a week. And shops should stay open later and more should be open on Sundays as well. I hate having to rush around and get all my shopping done on Saturdays when everything is crowded. Dutch society is based on a 1950s standard in many ways and a lot of people don't want to let go of that ideal. I think it reflects a deep but denied sexism that I've found to be pretty common here.
I read somewhere that what happened is that female labour was not necessary here during the First World War. Holland was neutral during the war and didn't go through the trauma of that war. No millions of women heading off to work... (This didn't happen in the Second WW either.) This has apparently had an effect on later generations.
It's definitely getting better. When I first got here it was only 50% of women worked and very few mothers with children, amongst some of the lowest figures in Europe. You couldn't work if you had to pick you children up everyday at dinner time. That pissed me right off. Also women working in boardroom positions is extremely poor, only 10% (last read) with 60% of those taken up by British/US women.
I share the sentiments on the "Vriendjeboekjes," Reading all the girl entries of "ik wil een mama worden" echoed somewhat the teenage brat culture of The UK, what I was trying to get away from, not that it happens much here of course. My daughter wrote in one book at the age of 6 "Ik wil een geoloog worden een vulkanen studeren" which was met with some bizarre remarks from parents and teachers alike.
I share the sentiments on the "Vriendjeboekjes," Reading all the girl entries of "ik wil een mama worden" echoed somewhat the teenage brat culture of The UK, what I was trying to get away from, not that it happens much here of course. My daughter wrote in one book at the age of 6 "Ik wil een geoloog worden een vulkanen studeren" which was met with some bizarre remarks from parents and teachers alike.
yep, I hear you all.. I work full time and am the mother of two small(er) kids... Hubby works freelance and his work comes in fits and starts... especially at the beginning whilst he was building up the business.
It simply made financial sense for me to work full time and for us to have a guaranteed income and for him to be a Stay at Home Papa several days a week with the kids... wow that has certainly raised a few eyebrows in the neighbourhood, friends, family .
After 8 years they are used to it, but everyone is still fairly shocked that I don't work part time.. or that I don't work the "Dutch full time " of many = 36 hours a week.. I work 40 hours.
If hubby had a guaranteed wage of a certain level so that we wouldn't have to sweat meeting our commitments then I'd be happy to work less, but with the economy in turmoil it's simply not the moment to experiment.
Actually, I find it truly amazing that I'm the only member of my immediate extended family male or female working full time ! (8 adults)
This is probably part of the reason that I get some subtle and not so subtle flack and some excellent doses of sour grapes over the years... we can afford to have a few nice holidays etc because i'm on the full salary and not a part-time one.
I think that sometimes people are still critical no matter what you do.. they mutter behind your back that you are lazy if you don't work full time but they mutter too when you do. I've accepted that I'll never win.. and I no longer care what they think.
The biggest thing that makes it work for our family is that we decided early on that it shouldn't matter which parent stayed home with the kids.
As a result our kids have a great relationship with their Papa who's done the yukky nappies, wiped up after they have been sick, survived the supermarket tantrum routines, walked the floor all night with a cranky baby who had cramps after I have finished the breastfeed (I got to go back to bed 'cos I had to be up for work early in the morning), they do the grocery shopping ( well, the boring standard stuff at least), he does the swimming lessons, music and we both do scouting...
Works for us.. and I think that in the end that's the key.. if it's possible then just do what works for you.. regardless of what other people think
It simply made financial sense for me to work full time and for us to have a guaranteed income and for him to be a Stay at Home Papa several days a week with the kids... wow that has certainly raised a few eyebrows in the neighbourhood, friends, family .
After 8 years they are used to it, but everyone is still fairly shocked that I don't work part time.. or that I don't work the "Dutch full time " of many = 36 hours a week.. I work 40 hours.
If hubby had a guaranteed wage of a certain level so that we wouldn't have to sweat meeting our commitments then I'd be happy to work less, but with the economy in turmoil it's simply not the moment to experiment.
Actually, I find it truly amazing that I'm the only member of my immediate extended family male or female working full time ! (8 adults)
This is probably part of the reason that I get some subtle and not so subtle flack and some excellent doses of sour grapes over the years... we can afford to have a few nice holidays etc because i'm on the full salary and not a part-time one.
I think that sometimes people are still critical no matter what you do.. they mutter behind your back that you are lazy if you don't work full time but they mutter too when you do. I've accepted that I'll never win.. and I no longer care what they think.
The biggest thing that makes it work for our family is that we decided early on that it shouldn't matter which parent stayed home with the kids.
As a result our kids have a great relationship with their Papa who's done the yukky nappies, wiped up after they have been sick, survived the supermarket tantrum routines, walked the floor all night with a cranky baby who had cramps after I have finished the breastfeed (I got to go back to bed 'cos I had to be up for work early in the morning), they do the grocery shopping ( well, the boring standard stuff at least), he does the swimming lessons, music and we both do scouting...
Works for us.. and I think that in the end that's the key.. if it's possible then just do what works for you.. regardless of what other people think
QUOTE (clickit @ Oct 30 2009, 11:08 AM)
the discussion never seems to go into why more women dont return to full time work (as in other countries) once their children start school. I know there is a shortage of affordable afterschool childcare,
Bullshit Excuse.
I'm somewhat with Marike Stellinga on this issue. Not working at all while the children are young puts you out of touch with the labour force, and makes it harder to find a job again afterwards. Staying at home part of the week is a very attractive alternative, and one heavily encouraged by the Dutch government's labour laws. You can have your cookie, and eat it too. In a lot of other countries, people are expected to put in at least 40 hours a week if they want a meaningful, reasonable-paying job.
The difference between men and women is that it's considered perfectly acceptable for a woman to stay at home three days a week and let her husband support her--even if she doesn't have children--whereas a man who does that reaps nothing but scorn.
QUOTE
These expectations need to change. At least now in the Netherlands girls and women are getting well educated, its just a shame it hasnt carried over to higher involvement in the workplace.
And that lower participation in the workplace is making higher education for women on the whole a very costly proposition. Get a University degree on the government dime, only to become a full-time mom? Perfectly acceptable in the Netherlands.
QUOTE (Swamp Zombie @ Oct 30 2009, 10:07 PM)
Bullshit Excuse.
I'm somewhat with Marike Stellinga on this issue. Not working at all while the children are young puts you out of touch with the labour force, and makes it harder to find a job again afterwards. Staying at home part of the week is a very attractive alternative, and one heavily encouraged by the Dutch government's labour laws. You can have your cookie, and eat it too. In a lot of other countries, people are expected to put in at least 40 hours a week if they want a meaningful, reasonable-paying job.
The difference between men and women is that it's considered perfectly acceptable for a woman to stay at home three days a week and let her husband support her--even if she doesn't have children--whereas a man who does that reaps nothing but scorn.
And that lower participation in the workplace is making higher education for women on the whole a very costly proposition. Get a University degree on the government dime, only to become a full-time mom? Perfectly acceptable in the Netherlands.
I'm somewhat with Marike Stellinga on this issue. Not working at all while the children are young puts you out of touch with the labour force, and makes it harder to find a job again afterwards. Staying at home part of the week is a very attractive alternative, and one heavily encouraged by the Dutch government's labour laws. You can have your cookie, and eat it too. In a lot of other countries, people are expected to put in at least 40 hours a week if they want a meaningful, reasonable-paying job.
The difference between men and women is that it's considered perfectly acceptable for a woman to stay at home three days a week and let her husband support her--even if she doesn't have children--whereas a man who does that reaps nothing but scorn.
And that lower participation in the workplace is making higher education for women on the whole a very costly proposition. Get a University degree on the government dime, only to become a full-time mom? Perfectly acceptable in the Netherlands.
I was not refering just to the cost of the childcare, only that there isnt enough of it, they all have waiting lists, and the 'good' ones have very long waiting lists. And trust me, in comparison to the childcare options available to me in New Zealand, there is a very noticable shortage here.
Not working at all for a couple of years shouldnt be a major problem if you have some motivation to, for example, take some extra training in that time, do some study, take some volunteer work etc. Employers also have to change that attitude and see the 'break' as unimportant, (which it is) to a parents career if it is to take care of young kids for a (relatively) short time. Employers should not be judging someones ability to do their job based only on the 'gap' in which they looked after kids (itself a very challenging job).
And dont kid yourself that most of the part time jobs for women in the Netherlands are somehow more 'meaningful' or reasonable paying than in other countries. The evidence is also that women rarely build these jobs into careers with a 'ladder' to climb, unless they can get back to full-time, which apparently they rarely do. In other words, in the Netherlands women can have their cookie but never get more than half of it to eat.
What gets me is that the part time work option is considered to be permanent once kids arrive, and that women argue for it to continue by suggesting that it is some kind of emancipation, that they can 'choose'. In fact the choice is very limited, but hey, if you dont know anything else I suppose it might see like a real choice...
I do know that women in the Netherlands themselves help to perpetuate this situation by judging other mothers badly if they work more than a couple of days a week, by not encouraging their daughters (by not modelling an example) to have high expectations of their working careers, and by continuing to believe that their limited choice is somehow a form of emancipation.
I agree with you that its costly to produce highly educated women who dump their potential contribution to the public sphere as soon as they have children. I can only say that a good education was never a negative point in any society irrespective of how it is used. I only hope that during the course of receiving that education, women are encouraged and offered opportunities that they can visualise themselves in and can see themselves building rewarding careers from. Apparently they dont get that now.
actually, daycare / after school care is one of the biggest problems. being a foreigner, i did not realise how hard it was go find decent care. i started looking for childcare when i was 3 months pregnant only to find that some places expect you to put your name down when you start thinking about starting a family. waiting lists for places for the youngest children (8 weeks to 1 year) are often 2 or 3 or even more years long. that, coupled with the current trend of only allowing you to put your name down when you are already pregnant really does not compute. how does it work? employees of creches and siblings of kids already in the creche automatically jump to the top of the waiting lists. sometimes some companies 'reserve' spaces in creches so their employees also go to the top of the lists. this makes it extremely difficult for first time parents to find decent childcare.
that said, it's also a cultural thing. when i was looking for full day 5 days a week childcare for my baby, i was insulted and refused and even asked why i wanted children if i was not going to be there for them. personally, i feel that it is important for my children to learn that there is no such thing as a free lunch and you get what you work for. i don't want them to grow up lazy thinking someone else will pay for them if they are too lazy to go work themselves.
i've also been criticised many times by other mothers for working when i have children. regardless of what has been said to me, i decided, on my own, to change my working practice. i still work full time (40 hours per week) but i have changed so that i can be home every night instead of travelling out of town Monday to Friday.
I am now faced with an incredibly difficult situation. i am a single mother. two children. my three year old is in full time schooling so needs after-school care. he has been kicked out of the centre he was going to due to having too much energy. they wanted him to sit and do art projects etc after a full day of structure at school and he wanted to be able to go outside and run around. i feel he should be allowed outside to expend as much energy as he has inside him. being allowed to play outside for one hour every second day at after school (weather permitting) is not enough in my opinion. anyway, the end result is, i was given two weeks notice to find a new place. and i need it to be somewhere that picks the kids up from school. with one year or more waiting lists, this is obviously problematic for me.
do i want to work part time? no way. i hate picking him up after school and watching him play with his little friends in the park while the other mothers talk about colour coordinating their hats n scarves to their handbags, or about losing weight, or about how they don't have time to do everything around the house. it is not a satisfying way to live. i have a brain. i want to use it. do i look down on those women? no, if they are happy with their decisions and can afford to not work (not by getting money from a government to pay for them not to work) then by all means, i'm happy for them. however, it is not a life i want to live.
i do not want to have to change to part time employment, but if i cannot find decent after school care for my 3 year old, it is something that may be forced on me.
that said, it's also a cultural thing. when i was looking for full day 5 days a week childcare for my baby, i was insulted and refused and even asked why i wanted children if i was not going to be there for them. personally, i feel that it is important for my children to learn that there is no such thing as a free lunch and you get what you work for. i don't want them to grow up lazy thinking someone else will pay for them if they are too lazy to go work themselves.
i've also been criticised many times by other mothers for working when i have children. regardless of what has been said to me, i decided, on my own, to change my working practice. i still work full time (40 hours per week) but i have changed so that i can be home every night instead of travelling out of town Monday to Friday.
I am now faced with an incredibly difficult situation. i am a single mother. two children. my three year old is in full time schooling so needs after-school care. he has been kicked out of the centre he was going to due to having too much energy. they wanted him to sit and do art projects etc after a full day of structure at school and he wanted to be able to go outside and run around. i feel he should be allowed outside to expend as much energy as he has inside him. being allowed to play outside for one hour every second day at after school (weather permitting) is not enough in my opinion. anyway, the end result is, i was given two weeks notice to find a new place. and i need it to be somewhere that picks the kids up from school. with one year or more waiting lists, this is obviously problematic for me.
do i want to work part time? no way. i hate picking him up after school and watching him play with his little friends in the park while the other mothers talk about colour coordinating their hats n scarves to their handbags, or about losing weight, or about how they don't have time to do everything around the house. it is not a satisfying way to live. i have a brain. i want to use it. do i look down on those women? no, if they are happy with their decisions and can afford to not work (not by getting money from a government to pay for them not to work) then by all means, i'm happy for them. however, it is not a life i want to live.
i do not want to have to change to part time employment, but if i cannot find decent after school care for my 3 year old, it is something that may be forced on me.
There are a large number of women in this country who work full time because they have to. I'm not talking about anyone on here because everyone here seems to have choices to contemplate.
There are plenty of immigrant mothers who are leaving children as young as eight or nine to care for themselves on a Wednesday afternoon when the schools are shut because they couldnt afford the childcare even if it was available to them. No family support, no partners. No friends and no time for them. The odd one or two have a kindly neighbour. To these mothers, they don't worry about climbing the corporate ladder all the way to the boardroom or using their brain to the fullest extent; they are too busy juggling their minimum wages and their children and their rent money to notice how utterly terrible it is for career women. They don't particularly care how they are judged by the dutch kakwifjes or the parttimers - they don't have time to.
I think many of the participants in this discussion should be counting their blessings. There for the grace of god... and all that.
There are plenty of immigrant mothers who are leaving children as young as eight or nine to care for themselves on a Wednesday afternoon when the schools are shut because they couldnt afford the childcare even if it was available to them. No family support, no partners. No friends and no time for them. The odd one or two have a kindly neighbour. To these mothers, they don't worry about climbing the corporate ladder all the way to the boardroom or using their brain to the fullest extent; they are too busy juggling their minimum wages and their children and their rent money to notice how utterly terrible it is for career women. They don't particularly care how they are judged by the dutch kakwifjes or the parttimers - they don't have time to.
I think many of the participants in this discussion should be counting their blessings. There for the grace of god... and all that.
Daycare is a problem in every country ... maybe it's worse here than where I am from in The States .. but it's a global problem. The friends I have in Germany and France have the exact same problem.
The difference here is (if you can afford it) .. you CAN work part-time and have children whereas in The States .. you HAVE to work full-time because there are no career oriented jobs where you can work part-time.
It's just not a part of the culture.
On the other hand, here woman are bashed is they DO work full time because they are living the way we lived 100 years ago. Women should be sitting home raising the children and keeping the house nice. Duh!
So .. then they have nothing else in their lives and when the kids grow up ... they are little empty vessels with an inappropriate over involvement in their adult children's lives.
Yes, daycare ... is in shortage everywhere ... and this so IMO to keep the little lady 'in her place' or .. it is so that if you HAVE to work fulltime .. you have a miserable life. It's punitive in effect to have children if you don't have a partner or if your partner doesn''t make enough to support you .. but it is particularly punitive if you want more out of life than being a mom.
How come men get to be dads but are still able to build their career and compete in the real world?
Why is that no one can find a solution to this problem? It's because .. they don't want to. Geesh, didn't they find a way for men to 'get it up' if they had problems in that area? Gosh, and that had to have been much harder than resolving these daycare issues that are causing all this stress for women. It gets down to what society decides is important and worth their energies to change.
I don't know the answer .. though I was always a big reader so by the time I was 12 years old .. I knew I did not want children.
Too much of a sacrifice ... and every women is not cut out to live that life.
The difference here is (if you can afford it) .. you CAN work part-time and have children whereas in The States .. you HAVE to work full-time because there are no career oriented jobs where you can work part-time.
It's just not a part of the culture.
On the other hand, here woman are bashed is they DO work full time because they are living the way we lived 100 years ago. Women should be sitting home raising the children and keeping the house nice. Duh!
So .. then they have nothing else in their lives and when the kids grow up ... they are little empty vessels with an inappropriate over involvement in their adult children's lives.
Yes, daycare ... is in shortage everywhere ... and this so IMO to keep the little lady 'in her place' or .. it is so that if you HAVE to work fulltime .. you have a miserable life. It's punitive in effect to have children if you don't have a partner or if your partner doesn''t make enough to support you .. but it is particularly punitive if you want more out of life than being a mom.
How come men get to be dads but are still able to build their career and compete in the real world?
Why is that no one can find a solution to this problem? It's because .. they don't want to. Geesh, didn't they find a way for men to 'get it up' if they had problems in that area? Gosh, and that had to have been much harder than resolving these daycare issues that are causing all this stress for women. It gets down to what society decides is important and worth their energies to change.
I don't know the answer .. though I was always a big reader so by the time I was 12 years old .. I knew I did not want children.
Too much of a sacrifice ... and every women is not cut out to live that life.
I'm another woman without kids at home who works 40 hours a week. I still can't believe how many times it's commented on that I work full time; all by other women. At first it was by a couple of younger women so I thought "OK, as I'm older (a whopping 51, 46 when I started working here) they think with the perspective on the young that I'm too old to be working that many hours". But apparently this is not age-bound thinking. I've now had the in-drawn breath and expressions of dismay/pity/disbelief/near horror from every age group. I just don't get it.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
QUOTE (susrs @ Oct 31 2009, 09:02 PM)
I'm another woman without kids at home who works 40 hours a week. I still can't believe how many times it's commented on that I work full time; all by other women. At first it was by a couple of younger women so I thought "OK, as I'm older (a whopping 51, 46 when I started working here) they think with the perspective on the young that I'm too old to be working that many hours". But apparently this is not age-bound thinking. I've now had the in-drawn breath and expressions of dismay/pity/disbelief/near horror from every age group. I just don't get it.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
Heh, my husband quickly found out that if he wanted a hot meal every night after work he could cook it himself. I'm a bit of a grazer and would happily eat a salad or a handful of this and that. I guess I'm a disgrace to my gender . . .
Fortunately I don't work with many women so I don't get that very often. I think that most men just don't see what women do so they don't neccesarily relate to having to come home from work and continue working. Mine will run a vacuum, wash dishes, cook, etc . . . but if I wanted the house genuinely clean I'd have to do most of it myself, hense the cleaning lady. The one female coworker did astonish me once though when we were having a conversation and I mentioned being stressed, having a hot bath. She sighed, "I wish I could have soak in the bath but I have kids." Her kids were something like 13 and 15 at the time. I can see if you have little ones that won't leave you in peace, but teenagers? Really? Tell them to bugger off and leave you alone. And do the laundry while they're at it. That's another thing, I don't get the whole not making your kids do chores. They eat, right? Let them earn their keep. Glaaaaaaaaad I'm not having kids. Especially here. I'd choke someone.
you are all reminding me of an experience i had here when i tried to get a mortgage. i had one child and a partner. we had an appointment with my bank's mortgage adviser. he started asking us questions and quickly decided that my partner was not to be included in the equation, even though he had a job, as he was a ' sub saharan african and therefor not relevant to a mortgage application'. this left me. the bank knew i had a child, so he looked me in the eye and said ' you are a single mother and we all know that mothers are statistically likely to either stop working completely or greatly reduce their working hours. you would not be able to afford the mortgage if you did this, so we cannot give you a mortgage'. i objected to the exclusion of my partner and the assumption i would give up my job, only to have him further dig himself into a hole when he said ' well, by your age, you are less likely to change your ways. women under 30 are very likely to stop working but if they have worked as long as you have it is a bit more likely you won't be able to change and be a good mother as you will put your job first'.
i was lost for words. he had insulted us in so many ways i was amazed. needless to say, we left pretty quickly.
if this is what people are brought up to believe in Holland, there is little hope that things will easily change.
i was lost for words. he had insulted us in so many ways i was amazed. needless to say, we left pretty quickly.
if this is what people are brought up to believe in Holland, there is little hope that things will easily change.
QUOTE (susrs @ Oct 31 2009, 09:02 PM)
I'm another woman without kids at home who works 40 hours a week. I still can't believe how many times it's commented on that I work full time; all by other women. At first it was by a couple of younger women so I thought "OK, as I'm older (a whopping 51, 46 when I started working here) they think with the perspective on the young that I'm too old to be working that many hours". But apparently this is not age-bound thinking. I've now had the in-drawn breath and expressions of dismay/pity/disbelief/near horror from every age group. I just don't get it.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
My Dutch guy also works full time and HE never seems to get these reactions even after people learn that he does more than his fair share at home. But for me? "Je kook ELKE avond, ook nadat je de hele dag werkt??" (You cook EVERY evening, even after working all day?). Uh, ja... I like eating daily. Odd habit, that.
So I do agree that it's the culture that is behind the times here, and it's not men's attitudes, it's the women themselves that perpetuate it, even when children aren't involved.
I can SOOOOOOO relate to this!
I cook for a hobby, it's therapeutic and relaxing after work... and often people are shocked that I not only cook every night of the week.. AND that we cook 90-100% from scratch !
Like you we like eating daily too... darned inconvienience isn't it
and we want to know that what we eat isn't "E" number filled junk..We eat out sometimes, preferring to entertain at home, but lately have been eating out more often simply because we found a very kid friendly restaurant that is reasonable on the budget, has good food and even better, brilliant service.
Yep I get "those" comments about working full time too...
It comes down to people making sweeping assumptions about women working and judging them purely on those assumptions.
That their judgments are barbed and harsh reflects more on them than me.
Sorry but I don't fit into the handbag and shoes co-ordination club either.. . if there's a club for shoot-me-before-I -get -like-that, then yep I'd be in that one... but obviously only temporilary
...(not knocking those who do like this stuff, but for goodness sakes I'm so sick of the eye rolling and the condescending looks for not being in the club)
mind you I could easily be persuaded to be in the dangerous-to-leave-in-any-shop-that-contains-serious-kitchen-equipment club... so maybe I just haven't found enough like minded cooking fiends ..oops I meant friends.. yet
Sometimes I could let it get to me... but I remind myself that there are bigger issues in life to worry about, and this one isn't one of them.
Does that stop it being annoying sometimes.. no. Might I also get this flack in NZ ?.... I don't know.maybe, maybe not.
I practice my Duck impression so that it will all run off...
QUOTE (osita @ Oct 31 2009, 06:29 PM)
There are a large number of women in this country who work full time because they have to. I'm not talking about anyone on here because everyone here seems to have choices to contemplate.
There are plenty of immigrant mothers who are leaving children as young as eight or nine to care for themselves on a Wednesday afternoon when the schools are shut because they couldnt afford the childcare even if it was available to them. No family support, no partners. No friends and no time for them. The odd one or two have a kindly neighbour. To these mothers, they don't worry about climbing the corporate ladder all the way to the boardroom or using their brain to the fullest extent; they are too busy juggling their minimum wages and their children and their rent money to notice how utterly terrible it is for career women. They don't particularly care how they are judged by the dutch kakwifjes or the parttimers - they don't have time to.
I think many of the participants in this discussion should be counting their blessings. There for the grace of god... and all that.
There are plenty of immigrant mothers who are leaving children as young as eight or nine to care for themselves on a Wednesday afternoon when the schools are shut because they couldnt afford the childcare even if it was available to them. No family support, no partners. No friends and no time for them. The odd one or two have a kindly neighbour. To these mothers, they don't worry about climbing the corporate ladder all the way to the boardroom or using their brain to the fullest extent; they are too busy juggling their minimum wages and their children and their rent money to notice how utterly terrible it is for career women. They don't particularly care how they are judged by the dutch kakwifjes or the parttimers - they don't have time to.
I think many of the participants in this discussion should be counting their blessings. There for the grace of god... and all that.
I don't think anyone here is denigrating the experience of the women you mention. The fact that women who aren't in this predicament are having such a hard time of it speaks for the fact that women in far worse situations have it particularly bad. But just because someone else has it worse off than you do doesn't mean that your problems are somehow less significant.
QUOTE (premiekiwi @ Oct 31 2009, 11:22 PM)
AND that we cook 90-100% from scratch !
Well that would shock them even if you didn't work.
Please - these women are in bondage and are too stupid to recognize it.
The reason people expect thst the woman is cooking every night .. is because they put an inordinate amount of energy into grocery shopping everyday so that they can cook every night.
I often see these stern looking women at the grocery store leading some man around and making a big deal over one thing or another in relation to hee hee! FOOD! Gessh, it's busy work.
What you cook for dinner ... is not so important.
The house? Then reason that lady cannot have a hot bath is because the mothers here are expected to do everything for their kids. Everything .. so that even at 15 year old still takes up the mother's time.
When I grew up everyone had age-appropriate chores around the house. My mother would come and check our work .. and if it was not right - we had to do it again .. before we were allowed to go out and play.
This teaches responsibiliy ... I thought everyone lived like this. Hee hee!
In terms of that Mortgage lender .. he was saying all that because probably that has been his experience time and time again.
And ... that's on the women themselves.
The reason people expect thst the woman is cooking every night .. is because they put an inordinate amount of energy into grocery shopping everyday so that they can cook every night.
I often see these stern looking women at the grocery store leading some man around and making a big deal over one thing or another in relation to hee hee! FOOD! Gessh, it's busy work.
What you cook for dinner ... is not so important.
The house? Then reason that lady cannot have a hot bath is because the mothers here are expected to do everything for their kids. Everything .. so that even at 15 year old still takes up the mother's time.
When I grew up everyone had age-appropriate chores around the house. My mother would come and check our work .. and if it was not right - we had to do it again .. before we were allowed to go out and play.
This teaches responsibiliy ... I thought everyone lived like this. Hee hee!
In terms of that Mortgage lender .. he was saying all that because probably that has been his experience time and time again.
And ... that's on the women themselves.
QUOTE (rainfrog @ Nov 1 2009, 11:06 AM)
Well that would shock them even if you didn't work.
I bake from scratch too! and with my kids... hey we even do messy kid activities.. paper making, printing, painting, and stuff like putting icing on homemade cupcakes and biscuits (cookies),
Friends and relatives look askance because daughter has been allowed to order a special book or two every year for herself for the last 4 years... every year with no assistance from parents she chooses cookbooks without fail ! ( yes I knooooow it's more to do with her addition to the cake section and icing sugar than anything else but... )
Oma gives the same "look" every year, the one that says "OMG just like her mother" and believe me she's not meaning it in a complimentary way.
This is the same woman who told me proudly that she makes her own apple tart and that it's verrry good! what she didn't expect was that I asked for the recipe and she face changed somewhat when she told me it was packet mix !
I tracked down a crockpot in the days when only one shop in all NL stocked them... and use it constantly.. makes excellent salt free stocks as well as a heap of other stuff... I have a brilliant recipe for pastry, use a pressure cooker, cook in bulk often, freeze extra for very busy days, used to can my own fruits and make my own pickles and chutneys in NZ on a regular basis (sheer lack space here in my apartment makes that one rather difficult)
I cook with an inordinate amount of herbs and think that any recipe that says " 1 clove of garlic" must have suffered a printing error... which I immediately correct to 3 or more...
Imagine what happened when I first went out with hubby and the first year it was mandatory to attend St.Nicolas at MiL's.. hubby said ... we don't do "Christmas" here.. but this will be like Christmas Day..ok?
I looked in amazement whilst hubbys oldest sister gave me tea bags as my main gift (and they knew I don't drink tea) and struggled when " dinner" from my vegetarian MiL consisted of tinned veg soup that was 90% water and a smattering of veggie mush at the bottom and soft bread rolls with a slice of cheese and current buns and a bowl of kruidnoten ...That was IT !
I held it together until we left, (no car in those days) so I cried all the way home on the tram.
Hubby said "it's the thought that counts" and I said though tears" yes but that's exactly the problem!"
I AM influencing my dutch family's cooking habits (or lack of them) but want to warn people that it's a long slow and sometimes painful process if you are a foodie in the Netherlands.
Don't get me started on the saga of trying to introduce a "pot luck".. yikes that's a rich one ...
The complete and happy remedy has been that Hubby and I vowed that no matter what the rest of the family did, that "Christmas" would be happening in our house that year, and every year afterwards... and it has.. so much so that suddenly the in laws have often asked to be invited.
QUOTE (premiekiwi @ Nov 1 2009, 03:34 PM)
I
The complete and happy remedy has been that Hubby and I vowed that no matter what the rest of the family did, that "Christmas" would be happening in our house that year, and every year afterwards... and it has.. so much so that suddenly the in laws have often asked to be invited.
The complete and happy remedy has been that Hubby and I vowed that no matter what the rest of the family did, that "Christmas" would be happening in our house that year, and every year afterwards... and it has.. so much so that suddenly the in laws have often asked to be invited.
ha
same happened in our family here too! Downside is that now I cook for three days prior to xmas and desparately miss the assistance and company of my kiwi family in the kitchen, now THATS gezellig, cooking together at christmas then sharing the meal we all made I now get 'requests' from my MIL for 'that lamb you made last year...'
QUOTE (premiekiwi @ Nov 1 2009, 03:34 PM)
I bake from scratch too! and with my kids... hey we even do messy kid activities.. paper making, printing, painting, and stuff like putting icing on homemade cupcakes and biscuits (cookies),
I tracked down a crockpot in the days when only one shop in all NL stocked them... and use it constantly.. makes excellent salt free stocks as well as a heap of other stuff... I have a brilliant recipe for pastry, use a pressure cooker, cook in bulk often, freeze extra for very busy days, used to can my own fruits and make my own pickles and chutneys in NZ on a regular basis (sheer lack space here in my apartment makes that one rather difficult)
I cook with an inordinate amount of herbs and think that any recipe that says " 1 clove of garlic" must have suffered a printing error... which I immediately correct to 3 or more...
Imagine what happened when I first went out with hubby and the first year it was mandatory to attend St.Nicolas at MiL's.. hubby said ... we don't do "Christmas" here.. but this will be like Christmas Day..ok?
I looked in amazement whilst hubbys oldest sister gave me tea bags as my main gift (and they knew I don't drink tea) and struggled when " dinner" from my vegetarian MiL consisted of tinned veg soup that was 90% water and a smattering of veggie mush at the bottom and soft bread rolls with a slice of cheese and current buns and a bowl of kruidnoten ...That was IT !
I held it together until we left, (no car in those days) so I cried all the way home on the tram.
Hubby said "it's the thought that counts" and I said though tears" yes but that's exactly the problem!"
I AM influencing my dutch family's cooking habits (or lack of them) but want to warn people that it's a long slow and sometimes painful process if you are a foodie in the Netherlands.
Don't get me started on the saga of trying to introduce a "pot luck".. yikes that's a rich one ...
The complete and happy remedy has been that Hubby and I vowed that no matter what the rest of the family did, that "Christmas" would be happening in our house that year, and every year afterwards... and it has.. so much so that suddenly the in laws have often asked to be invited.
I tracked down a crockpot in the days when only one shop in all NL stocked them... and use it constantly.. makes excellent salt free stocks as well as a heap of other stuff... I have a brilliant recipe for pastry, use a pressure cooker, cook in bulk often, freeze extra for very busy days, used to can my own fruits and make my own pickles and chutneys in NZ on a regular basis (sheer lack space here in my apartment makes that one rather difficult)
I cook with an inordinate amount of herbs and think that any recipe that says " 1 clove of garlic" must have suffered a printing error... which I immediately correct to 3 or more...
Imagine what happened when I first went out with hubby and the first year it was mandatory to attend St.Nicolas at MiL's.. hubby said ... we don't do "Christmas" here.. but this will be like Christmas Day..ok?
I looked in amazement whilst hubbys oldest sister gave me tea bags as my main gift (and they knew I don't drink tea) and struggled when " dinner" from my vegetarian MiL consisted of tinned veg soup that was 90% water and a smattering of veggie mush at the bottom and soft bread rolls with a slice of cheese and current buns and a bowl of kruidnoten ...That was IT !
I held it together until we left, (no car in those days) so I cried all the way home on the tram.
Hubby said "it's the thought that counts" and I said though tears" yes but that's exactly the problem!"
I AM influencing my dutch family's cooking habits (or lack of them) but want to warn people that it's a long slow and sometimes painful process if you are a foodie in the Netherlands.
Don't get me started on the saga of trying to introduce a "pot luck".. yikes that's a rich one ...
The complete and happy remedy has been that Hubby and I vowed that no matter what the rest of the family did, that "Christmas" would be happening in our house that year, and every year afterwards... and it has.. so much so that suddenly the in laws have often asked to be invited.
WHERE DID YOU FIND A CROCKPOT??? I REALLY want one and have yet to find one.
I miss baking, I love to bake, but I don't eat gluten anymore so it kinda limits my options. What I actually need to do is start scouring the web and find some recipes that look like I can work with them and try to make something palatable. I can figure out tarts and pies easily enough as you can make a passable crust without wheat flour, but it just doesn't work with breads and cakes.
Weekdays I don't cook mainly because my husband is classic Dutch with a conservative palate. I just don't enjoy it when I'm worrying about whether he'll complain so I just let him cook. I have taught him how to properly cook veg (not boiled to a pulp and mashable) and I invested in a really good griddle so I don't have to suffer with everything cooked in an inch of grease. It's funny but his adult kids love coming over to our house when I'm cooking, especially around the holidays, because they know they'll get fed well. I usually order a turkey (why won't they give you the giblets even when you order them) make real mashed potatoes, homemade gravy and so on. You'd think they'd not eaten in a week.
As far as the gift thing goes I swear it's a Dutch thing and not personal. This year for his birthday one of the kids gave my husband a milk frother for cappuccino. He's never drunk cappuccino in his life. Bizarre.
Indeed, being a foodie here is incredibly frustrating, especially if you have dietary restrictions and especially if they involve ingredients found in 90% of the average Dutch diet. I would KILL (And I think I mean that literally) for a Whole Foods or something similar. I could be perfectly happy eating lots of fresh fruits and veg and meats but when you buy fruit and veg and by day two of having it at home it's already rotting, yeah.
It's amazing how it is possible to cook a homemade, nutritious meal in less than an hour. Trying to get most people to believe that is another matter. I do admit to using a lot of pre-packaged veg but just the plain fresh or frozen stuff. And like premiekiwi I freeze a lot of it. You'd think I was cooking for an army when it's just the 2 of us but 3/4 or it goes into the freezer for weekday meals.
So ja, I work 5 days a week and cook for us, but I bet I spend half the time doing it as most part-timers or stay at home women...
Oh, and about my Dutchie? He's happy to leave me to my cooking hobby and takes on the lion's share of the other housework. His mom did a good job, I think!
So ja, I work 5 days a week and cook for us, but I bet I spend half the time doing it as most part-timers or stay at home women...
Oh, and about my Dutchie? He's happy to leave me to my cooking hobby and takes on the lion's share of the other housework. His mom did a good job, I think!
QUOTE (rainfrog @ Nov 1 2009, 05:59 PM)
WHERE DID YOU FIND A CROCKPOT??? I REALLY want one and have yet to find one.
I bought mine last year at a cooking store that's in a row of shops near the Selexyz in Utrecht. I can't for the life of me remember the shop's name, but you can't miss it when you walk along the row of shops (opposite the restraunt with the big green pillars). They had a pretty good selection of about 5 or 6 models.
A cooking shop here in Almere Centrum also has crock pots.
QUOTE (rainfrog @ Nov 1 2009, 04:59 PM)
WHERE DID YOU FIND A CROCKPOT??? I REALLY want one and have yet to find one.
I miss baking, I love to bake, but I don't eat gluten anymore so it kinda limits my options. What I actually need to do is start scouring the web and find some recipes that look like I can work with them and try to make something palatable. I can figure out tarts and pies easily enough as you can make a passable crust without wheat flour, but it just doesn't work with breads and cakes.
I miss baking, I love to bake, but I don't eat gluten anymore so it kinda limits my options. What I actually need to do is start scouring the web and find some recipes that look like I can work with them and try to make something palatable. I can figure out tarts and pies easily enough as you can make a passable crust without wheat flour, but it just doesn't work with breads and cakes.
For your gluten free stuff.. try "reform winkels" they are a health food shops.. or Ekoplaza in the center of the Hague, lots of biological stuff there etc.
For recipes, my suggestion would be this website: Recipezaar.com
and the special Forum for Gluten-free Diet / Celiac Disease
http://www.recipezaar.com/bb/viewforum.zsp?f=31
and recipes like :
http://www.recipezaar.com/bb/viewtopic.zsp?t=314236
I'm a long time member and am known there under my usual internet name "Kiwidutch" and tell them I sent you if you visit
("Kiwidutch" was already taken as a name here so I use my backup name of premiekiwi...)
What I like about Zaar is that people don't just submit recipes and leave you to guess in the dark... everyone can also make, photograph and review them, so you get (from most people ) honest feedback on the recipes and in the forums people will answer your questions and try and help you if you are having problems, discuss your successes etc. I've actually met up with Rita L one of the Hosts of this forum and she's lovely !
.. and I got my crockpot / slowcooker at:
Domestica Spectra
Frederik Hendriklaan 150
2582 BH Den Haag
http://www.domesticadenhaag.nl/
Mine is called a "soba" and it cost 69 or 70 Euro's. I bought another one as a wedding present for a friend and they love it too.
At the time I bought mine, yikes 8 or more years ago approximately there were only two models available, the other one was a Russell Hobbs, and it came with a crock that was made in two halves, the was a non removable porcelain "wall" in the middle so effectively you could cook two separate items simultaneously ... might have been a great idea for some people but with my bulk style of cooking it didn't suit at all.
I haven't personally checked for crockpots at these places since I already have one.. but I have gotten other equipment at these places... take care they are shops for foodies to drool over !
Kitchen Equipment - En Garde
Prinsenstraat 6
2513 CB The Hague
T +31 (0) 70 364 73 52
DOK
Passage 19, 2511AB, Den Haag
Phone. +31 70 3469696
Some of the stuff in DOK can be found far cheaper in other places if you know where to look.. Poffetjes Pans new models in cast iron are Euro 29-ish there but you can pick up EXACTLY the same at the Haagse Markt for 12...
...and if you like organic veggies, then the Reform shop in the Frederik Hendriklaan has a good selection ( good but not cheap) or you could try:
Organic Vegetables – Gaia
Aert van der Goesstraat 35-37
2582 AJ The Hague
T +31 (0) 70 354 28 27
Hope that helps and Let us know if you have success in getting a crockpot !
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