Friends ....want to interpret few of the things in office

dutch invite for a coffee in office - I feel normal as we would any where to start discussion informally (thats good)... but what is this dutch coffe culture ? what ppl talk about

Few are very good they would call me for lunch always .. but when we are at lunch table all will be speaking / joking in dutch .. how do I respond in my country I would tell upfront ..

When I ask for something ppl come with me to show the place ... when they can simply tell me the path .. so nice of them but same person sitting next to me on the lunch table will not respond to my smile now what is that

Few people perticularly are very fond of talking about my country and their country .. political / economical etc etc ..is it OK to get into such discussion in office?

Is it allowed to keep yahoo messanger open in the office

What do I interpret when a dutch girl says . pls call me when ever you need any help .. even during the week ends to see the city etc even after knowing that I am married .... ?

Some days back people stopped calling me for luch / calling for coffee.. I do not why .. I then initiated by calling then for coffee like they did ... and I took more coffee than I normally do .. now things are back to normal .. I feel it was because of those coffee invites or this is some thing else ..

They took time to try to include you in the coffee breaks, after a while, they expect you to return the favour. To do so is plain common courtesy.

You're in the Netherlands. Lunch time is their personal time. You would do the same in your home country and speak your native language. It may get frustrating but sheesh, you are in a foreign country.

So, some people may not like you. That is life. They are your coworkers, not your friends. You are all there to work, not socialise. If they don't respond, they don't respond.

Offices set their own internet use policies. Ask your manager.

What a boring reply tarashen, I disagree with most of it.

Free country. But I'm not here to entertain you. Unless of course, you just wanted to start an argument. Now that's boring.

This is not as simple the way you made it to look .
Some of the point are imaginable but what I seen here most of the time is that at canteen they keep on talking in dutch ignoring you; which is again ok if they do sometime but no it goes on and on and on....
So, the best thing is to ignore them too ....

Once a guy on the table said "You might be feeling bored as we all are speaking in dutch" to which I said with a straight face "I don't mind you guys talking as long as its not about me" well I am known to be funny guy there so it was taken as a joke as expected...

Well, its not hard to talk for a minute in between than to ignore through out the lunch... but then its typical dutch thing ....which now I am used to....

Cheers,

Yup, I agree.

Good comeback!

But it IS tricky...because, yeah, lunch IS their downtime, so they do have a right to speak Dutch. It's your downtime too, though, so, if it's all new to you, 30 minutes of it is bound to be tiring, which is the opposite to what lunch is supposed to be!

And you want to be seen as a team player...so what do you do? Sit there amongst the Tower of Babel (which many large international company canteens can resemble at times!) and get a headache trying to listen, or find someone who speaks your language and appear standoffish to your immediate colleagues?

Thing is, the Dutch are in a unique position: they have rarely been in the position where they are surrounded by people who speak a language they aren't familiar with. Whether it's German, English or French, they have the basics at least, so really can't relate to those who feel lost or left out. They aren't being intentionally cruel or rude...and probably feel that all it takes is listening to Dutch a bit for you to catch on. Perhaps it worked that way for them when they were kids first learning their second or third language (but they have no way of remembering that process; they take it for granted) -- not necessarily so when you're older.

My only issue was when Dutch was the predominant language on the JOB. It affected my work, bonding with my team, and led to a less than positive job review in which my "proactivity" was questioned. That's when things get VERY tricky.

My Dutchie would tell me, "English is the working language there; you didn't need Dutch to get the job, you have the right to demand that they work in English!" Yeah, but, I would argue: This is their country...they weren't directly addressing me...and I'm just the assistant -- I can't make demands like that, even if I can't be proactive because I have no idea what's going on in my team. You could see how, the further up the food chain you went, the more the Dutch would defer to the language of the employee. Your position determines the language spoken in your presence, unfortunately.

And, even more unfortunately, assistants like myself who felt left out the most also were generally ineligible for company Dutch lessons because we were all agency temps.

Very unique office politics; you need a thick skin, a knack for languages and a friend or two in your company to keep you going from day to day. For those of us who had to take a step or two back in our careers after moving here, sometimes a rather difficult pill to swallow.

Well I do have a thick skin and I have seen the same situations when I moved to different city in my own country ,,,, but there I could request / ask ppl to speak what I understand .... but here not sure how to react ... so thick skin is helping me anyways

Since I have been in many such situations so I make it a point to not to speak the language which all in the group can not understand and if some one in the group does that I try to convert this in English for the person ,,, and as rightly said Dutch may not have faced such “office situation” .. ? I will give them benefit of doubt here …

On coffee / curtsy thing I read one discussion that ppl keep track on how much they spend and how much you are spending is that correct do I really need to track this for every person ..when one person normally pays for the coffee for all the group .. I also do the same .. not sure who is taking what kind of coffee ? .. I do not mind in being a situation when person other side feels that I have paid more .. but would have if this is other way round in any calculation ?

But how to react to the ppl who want to talk more and more about many political issues like 2 days back one person kept on coming back to the point of color of skin how do I respond .. I try to change the topic or keep mum …. is that correct ……how to deal with it ?????


and what about that offer to meet over the week end …?????

You are obviously a real Rico Suave (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rico+suave) so there is only one thing you can do, JUMP HER BONES MAN!!!!


Seriously, you seem pretty clueless in general. I would like to see a photo of both of you before anyone assumes she was hitting on you.


[had to come back for this one]

Well it works for me anyway as I am not a useless talker and keep the things on point and most of the guys I seen here (even with good IQ) talk about everything and keep on adding one thing and other...and then I prefer a quiet lunch .


Well you cannot go up the food chain unless you speak the language so this situation will not occur IMO.
As far as my current job is concerned I can tell you I will not have to learn dutch may be for few more years but I am trying .

The pronunciation is bit stupid for me but I like the sound when dutch woman talk because what I feel is dutch woman speaks differently than dutch guys ..or may be I am getting carried away with some 'other' thing..

Cheers,

You kidding me .... GRAB HER WITH BOTH HANDS....

Those high up the "food chain" in my old job were professionals recruited from overseas...physicians and whatnot.

That being said, those promoted to senior management positions always knew Dutch.

That was obvious ....and thanks for the complement <Seriously, you seem pretty clueless in general>.... but its better to check all the learning before you JUMP.... many things here are not obvious and I feel its always better to ask when in doubts ..I must admit more than clueless I am fearful..

For your Rico Suave comments .. I am not even in those 99.7% who think they can be one … ? (presales job in a high sales focus environment does not allow me to even think that)

Thanks for replies anyways

Any comments on the math of coffee / favor

I mean this with all kindness, don't let this fairly small things in life bother you. Its not worth it. Be yourself at the office, be kind and inviting when you want to be. Don't make it an equation.

Bon chance

you should wash your hands first RB!

Welcome back! You claim to be Frenchman, but a Frenchman would always write "bonne chance"...

I like to play dirty

Thanks Mkitchell............Thats nice advice..

French is not my first language. Its my third.

Yet I am still a Frenchman!
And an American!

Isn't dual nationality grand?

I am not back, just surfing through and checking if anyone needs some cat sitting. I decided to stop wasting my time here and it feels GREAT.

As a Dutchie who has had a lot of international colleagues and is a foreign colleague now, maybe I can interpret your Dutch office experiences.

-Dutch coffee culture? Taking a coffee break with (some of) your coworkers typically halfway in the moring and halfway in the afternoon.

-They got you started by inviting you for the coffee/lunch breaks and it is expected that you also reciprocate. Isn't there a list where you sign off how coffee you had the last month so that you can pay your dues? If you need to pay upfront then you should indeed keep track. Just figure out how large the group is that gets the coffee and how often you see the same face and then do the same.

-Yes they speak in Dutch during those breaks. Just because they can speak (some) English doesn't mean its easy for them and speaking in a second language can get pretty tiring. Clearly there is a group dynamic going on which means that it is not realistic to expect the group to switch to English because of you. Can you go with a smaller group? Or some more English speakers so that the Dutch are a minority? In that way you can get them to speak English. Other then that, at least try to learn to understand Dutch so that you can talk in English and listen in Dutch.

-Respond to your smile. You mean a get smile back or start the converstation? The second is not a likely response because it would mean trying to get the group to talk English.

-The girl might offer genuine help to a newcomer (and his wife). Maybe she recognizes that it can be tough to start in a different country. It happens. But yes it was also entirely possible that she was coming on to you (show you the city?). I think this is a universal "problem" so can you drop some hints that you're married? What was her body language? If you want take her offer do so in a way that she can back out of it when she finds out you're married or else you can have an unpleasant afternoon.

-Discussion about countries. I don't know if it is a typical Dutch thing to do but I also like that. It offers me an different look on my country and makes me think about what I like or dislike. You have to make the judgement whether they just want to hear something good about the Netherlands (its significance for instance) or that they are really interested and want to learn something. Probably they will say something insulting about your country but see that as an opportunity to do some PR and educate them. Let them know it isn't black and white. Don't paint your home country as flawless though and have some critique, then ask them what they don't like about their country and probably things come up that you can relate to.

Hope it helps somewhat.

Good advice from noohyoudidnt....

I think it's very possible your colleague is sympathetic to your situation of being a stranger in a strange land. I felt pretty isolated when I moved here and one day, a colleague invited me to watch the Eurocup with him at a local pub (no, he wasn't gay!) - he just explained that he had once lived abroad himself and knew how isolating it can be when you're new and don't know anyone. It was a very nice gesture. Of course, your colleague being female adds a different dynamic, but if you just mention once casually "my wife" in a conversation at the office, that's certainly enough information to make the point and see if she still wants to help - maybe she will invite you and your wife- problem solved!

I remember my first day at the "office" here - I was all gung-ho at 9am, ready to work and we wound up sitting around drinking coffee for the first hour! Coming from the workaholic US culture, it took quite some getting used to - but now I like it ;-)

I also had some situations where I sat in a room of colleagues who were speaking Dutch - before I knew the language - and I just sat politely and tried to keep myself amused, listen and try to pick up words, etc .... at one point, one of them will joke that you don't understand what they're saying- just stay amused and positive even if it's slow torture :-) It's all part of the adaptation process.

My wife is a big smiler and has found that in general, smiling doesn't seem to go over well here unless it has a specific purpose.

Oh, they are. But their opinion is mainly that the Netherlands is better than your country in every conceivable way, so it's not a discussion that you want to start.

One advantage to being Canadian...I don't have to hear that too often. Not that it's so wonderful...it's just perceived by the Dutch to be so. They usually wonder why I moved here!!

When I just got here at times I got soooo bored of talking about Tejas that I just made a country up, a small island nation in the Carribean

Hello again all my good friends!!

I have just come back from my holiday [in England] and phew! let me tell you what a relief it is to be back in this civilized country where not everyone is going on about swine flu all day long!
Anyway, although I cannot comment about Dutch people in their offices so well, although I do sometimes see them if I have to bring the sandwiches and cakes to the board room, I do see them nearly every day in our canteen.
To me they always seem perfectly friendly as they laugh and joke about the funny things that life can throw our ways sometimes. Or that is probably what they are talking about, but as I can't speak much Dutch yet, I don't really know.
They don't seem to me to be as cold as some of you think, but maybe that's just my impression. They do eat a lot of apples though. That is one thing I have definetely noticed. Not only that by they always have their own peelers with them, and always take the peel off.This I don't understand.

Anyway my friends
It is good to be back!

Les

Whenever a Dutch colleague begins to preface his/her statement about their personal opinion concerning something about you or what your doing or thinking with...."Don't take my comment negatively but..." - Take it negatively because it will be negative - guaranteed.

LOL! So true! I am feeling like sh$t today as I have an abscess on my tooth and my face is all swollen and quite painful. I can't see my dentist until Monday. I just met a neighbour while I was out. She proceeds to tell me I look like hell and my face is all swollen...like I didn't know. You are so right - if the comment is prefaced with ''don't take this negatively but...'' then nine times out of ten you should!

...and the reason for pointing this out to you? I gather it wasn't said out of concern for your health...

No - I'm sure it wasn't that..probably just to let me know I looked like Bugs Bunny.

I dunno - I find in general that the dutch like english stuff - football,music,tv dramas and sense of humour.
I've taken quite a few dutch people back for visits(and my home town is not at all touristy) and they absolutely love it.
But most of my dutch friends are well- travelled and that makes a lot of difference I guess.

Same here...My old Dutch colleagues were, on the most part, Anglophiles who would quote Monty Python, loved the costume dramas, and watched Mock the Week and Nevermind the Buzzcocks...and sighed enviously everytime I was shipped off to Cambridge!

Could also be an age thing too...20-somethings usually still have that wanderlust attitude about life...

Similar to the "I'm not a racist, but...." preface

Hi All,

Thanks for helping me ...
The new place and new people are becoming stranger day by day.... it seems like I am in totally different world ... not that all things are -ve or I like everything but I find most of the things works differently here.... many replies have helped in understanding that I am not the only one with such feeling ...

Integrating with ppl seems to be little difficult unless one speaks Dutch ... and I have seen in many cases ppl do not like my efforts to understand Dutch...

I thought people are direct here .. what they claim to be all the time .. now call it an impact of market situation or height of individualism.. ppl do not want to share the workload ... and as a result few ppl are too busy and others do not have any work at all ... everyone in the team knows that they should be routing one particular kind of work to me and they would agree and ask generic questions during the formal discussions and during coffee breaks but when it comes to the actual work no one seems to be comfortable in taking my support.... (Not that I want to help everyone but that is my job) ...they rather drop / delay or do it wrong way.... generally they would talk big about the service line but internally they seems unconvinced about it ..... when I go to my boss (who happens to be the one who wanted this to start) he seems to be clueless on how to drive team to move the right direction ....... how can one expect change to happen ??

Can any one tell me how to make them speak about their apprehensions and how to make them at least agree to explore the new ways … towards change …..

How do I tell them that methods of business has to change with time ...

You have to earn their respect. It's like that in every job in every country. Until then, you cannot except that they accept your ideas.

Use this opportunity in the best way: make all the efforts to learn dutch so you can integrate easily.

For me it's more difficult because everyone in the office speaks english, so I kinda get lazy about learning it, but you have a good excuse.