This topic is just so tasty I thought I'd paste the discussion about it from the Rude & Proud thread to its own section here, next to the stroopwafels:

Negerzoenen aren't Dutch. In Germany they were called "Negerküsse", in France "tête de nègre". And they excist in other European countries too, with similar names. So, you are making something Dutch what isn't Dutch. Neither the things itself are Dutch, nor the namechange of them in recent years. For example in Germany they are called "Schaumküsse".

Why do you BORE us with this new thread while there have been so many threads about this subject in the past? Can't you consult the Archives?

Bis repetita NON placent!

I have only lately arrived in this country, and had never before heard of so these so-called Negerzoenen until today. Surely the Dutch could never be so insensitive as to call a cake so offensive a name. What in God's name were they thinking of?
I am a person of colour myself and let me tell you if they had tried anything like this in my part of the world [Brixton] there would very likely have been extensive rioting. Or at the very least widespread boycotting of bakeries.

Did they ever apologise to anyone for this gross insensitivity to those who might have been offended by this repulsive insult? Is it worth contacting the Dutch Government about this?

What were we all thinking of many decades ago. This is not knew... You probably wont like Zwarte Piet either when he shows his face later in the year but this is the Netherlands I'm afraid.

I'm a white Dutchy, and I'm honestly curious; what's so offensive about a Black man's kiss that it might justify a riot? I can see why it might be considered false advertising, but...

I am sorry not to have replied earlier, but I have been out enjoying this lovely weather.
Anyway, thank you for your kind enquiry, if you please, consider this which I have copied and pasted and let me know if you think it is appropriate:

Buys brand 'Zoenen' product vision from the manfuacturer:

‘Iemand die een negerzoen eet, krijgt bruine lippen en als die een ander een kus geeft, dan is dat een kus van een neger.’

Someone who eats a Zegerzoen gets brown lips and if he should then give someone else a kiss - that is the kiss of a 'neger'.


We had riots in Brixton about 25 years ago, and they were caused by what many in the community percieved as racism. I hope this answers your question.

It's a bit silly, and I admit it does fill me with a kind of 'unease' simply because it involves racial characteristics. At the same time, I cannot really pinpoint how it maligns or slanders black people.

I don't really feel strongly about the name of the product in any way. Zoenen or Negerzoenen, I think they're rather nice, and if the manufacturer thinks it's time to rename them, I'm fine with that.



But surely those riots weren't about unfortunately named cookies?

Racism is a very unpleasant thing, and I certainly think we have an obligation to try to consciously excise racial stereotypes from our culture, or at least banish them to the realm of the inappropriate. But I'm not sure where Negerzoenen fit in.

The question is if the negerzoen came out on the market today - would it be named as such? If not...why?

The racial overtones that the name suggests is so obvious and insidious that most intelligent people would not take it seriously. On the other hand, white Dutch consumers, who have unabashedly described themselves as such, see nothing wrong in the chocolaty morsel. Their disbelief or unknowingness produces replies like this, "I cannot really pinpoint how it maligns or slanders black people". Herein lies the clue.

If the name "negerzoen" becomes a problem - people would have to acknowledge that the playful if not erroneous and stereotypical racial branding of a product, can negatively effect a person or an entire group of people. What's odd but not entirely surprising, is that the white Dutch consumer(s) consider themselves the aggrieved party. Go figure.

If one considers that Buys named the product in 1920 and not in 2009 should tell volumes as to why the negerzoen is no longer called the negro kiss. Could you imagine a modern day marketing campaign implementing Buys reason for the product name...Someone who eats a negerzoen gets brown lips and if he should then give someone else a kiss - that is the kiss of a 'neger'?

Think people...think.

You are right Mr Zombie, unfortunately named cookies were not the cause of the rioting [which left a policeman called Blakelock dead if I remember].
As I remember it had something to do with the police arresting a young jamaican youth on the suspicion of being a drug dealer, but in a very hostile manner.
I shall accept your wisdom in the matter of these Negerzoenen as I can see that if most Dutch people are as nice and polite as you, then they could not possibley find such unfortunately named cookies racist. My sincere apologies on this matter and I am sorry to have troubled you.

Buys didn't choose the productname, as the product isn't an invention by them. It is a cooky that exists in several European countries with similar names.

Western society is full of these products which have a racist origin. And because we grew up with it, it is difficult to acknowledge the racist nature of these things.
I am sure in Britain similar discussions exist when it comes to the golliwogg doll. Most Brits probably don't think there is anything racist about them, while of course these things are just as racist as Zwarte Piet, Negerzoenen, etc. And I wrote it earlier, the things aren't called negerzoenen anymore.

I think you're getting history a bit mixed up. Police Constable Keith Henry Blakelock was murdered during the Broadwater Farm riots in 1985.
There were three riots in Brixton. 1981, 1985 and 1995... a week after the 1985 Brixton riots the Broadwater Farm riots broke out between the Metropolitan Police and mainly black residents of North London's Tottenham district. PC Blakelock was set upon by a mob who tried to decapitate him with machetes, knives and other weapons, fatally injuring him. To date, no one has been convicted of his murder... besides the three men who had their convictions quashed.

What a fantastic collection of observations (below) on the subject & wider elements of Dutch societal attitudes - thank you, Papasutra I really appreciated your thoughts, style & read it all with great interest!

To the participant from Brixton:

If one were to make a sweeping generalization about this varied and complex Nation, (obviously there are wide individual differences and even regional ones between ''liberal'' Amsterdam / the Randstad vs the rest of the country eg: the Dutch 'Bible Belt'), one could make the observation that there is a large element of ethnocentricity in attitudes combined with an incredible level of cultural insensitivity and fundamental clumsiness in interacting with people from other cultures.

Many things that are shocking to outsiders and which could be perceived as having racist overtones, especially to those from the UK & North America, such as the 'Negerzoenen' subject discussed here or Sinterklaas' lovable & impish Al Jolson blackface helpers: Zwarte Piet - simply aren't perceived that way at all by the vast majority of the Dutch. As seen by some of the comments here eg: 'just what is the problem?''..

When it comes to the subject of cultural sensitivity - I strongly feel that 'the Dutch' (see the above disclaimer and with respect to the well-meaning native participants here) - lag, easily, 50 years behind the times as compared to the UK or the USA..

I find it shocking that in the UK a doll like the golliwogg is still sold. And I find it shocking that the US Americans have a national holiday to celebrate how they robbed the land of the natives. And I am sure there are plenty more examples if we search a little bit.
And I strongly feel that the big majority of the British and US Americans are just as cultural insensitive as the average Dutch. Your feeling about the Dutch being 50 years behind is just that: your feeling.

Just because other countries do something, racially insensitive it does not make it a default for the Dutch or anyone for that matter to be racially insensitive. What kind of defense is that really? It reminds me of childhood days when a child does something wrong and points to another child and say well he did it! As they say, two wrongs do not make a right.
The point is the cookies were not appropriate in this day in time and thus the name change… some countries have banned the word in fact. What is amazing is people feel that the name change was a blow to the Dutch culture. I can only assume they want to embrace and keep a tradition of racism. That thinking should go way back in the box were racism was created and left there.
In my opinion racism is not okay even if widely accepted and a part of tradition.

I replied to the exitstageleft, who claimed that the Netherlands are 50 years behind the UK and the States, when it comes to cultural sensitivity. Something which I highly doubt is true.
But you're right, racism is wrong. Everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTLZqco9jY...feature=related

maybe not 50. Maybe 25. I dont consider it so much 'insensitivity' as 'niet slechte bedoeld' naivety

Sorry I did not mean to imply I agreed with exitstagelefts statement of 50 years behind. We both agree it is wrong everywhere and you are right about racial insensitivity everywhere... In the USA we tend to only think in black and white terms... we forget about the rest of the other ethnic people. We should be ashamed we still have spots teams named the Chiefs and Indians for example with silly logos I do not find it cute or funny and I know many Americans would cry foul and say it is a part of the sports culture bla bla bla and wont change the names to this day. In additon a company was selling tshirts about 10 years ago that showed a china man behind a counter at a chinese named dry cleaners with the slogan ching chow happy cleaners for example..not sure that was exact wording but you get the idea ...they did pull them off the counters but still it was inappropriate and completely insensitve at best.

O Lieve Hemel - its the ghastly USHI!

(Clearly where Sacha Baron Cohen obtained his inspiration.)

Ok - let's make it 37.5 years then.. I'll shake a herring on that.

There is a definite point about the element of a not neccessarily negatively-intentioned naïveté - though I feel this trait does tie in with clumsiness, insensitivity and a general lack of experience in dealing with other cultures.

Point taken... In some ways NL seems behind but in other areas such as gay marriage and registered partnerships they are way ahead of my country.

I have never gone looking for ''golliwog'' dolls but I would be very surprised if you could find these things on sale in the UK these days. Racism sadly does still exist everywhere but I think the UK is much better in general than the Netherlands for the outlook and attitudes.

A quick search on the Internet and I see you can still buy them...
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q...mp;oq=golliwogs

I'm sure you can still buy all sorts of other dolls too... without a tinge of racism coming into it at all.

I looked at the link Wesley. I am so surprised. I really wouldn't have thought you could get those dolls now - as I mentioned in the above link, I haven't actually ever looked for one but I really would have thought they were not on the market any more. Weird stuff! I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy one but obviously they must still sell. Strange.

But Wes, that's precisely what the Dutch say about negerzoenen and black pete!

I wouldn't want one myself either, but then I'm not into dolls, of any kind... I wonder though, what would people make of a white golliwog.

My point was, that we seem able to accept any other type of doll without problems...

Jodenkoeken can still be had at any Dutch supermarket, like negerzoenen they sure are yummy.

This still going on???? OH PATIENCE!!!!

that's a good point indeed.

Oh my goodness! That wasn't quite the doll I had in mind but anyway, it's a doll, of sorts! It looks like he's starting out at quite a young age...

Stay focused folks...

Now, if you were to be kissed by one of these fellows, you'd have a negerzoen:


If you had one of these on your lawn or driveway - it could be an invitation to disaster:


And if you can't understand why the contextual meaning of a negerzoen is just plain wrong (Buys description of their product) then you could be considered a NON post-racialist:

If you were to be kissed by one of those, you'd be covered in red lip stick. How revolting!

Wes, would you prefer green or purple?

Um, how about chocolate?

Hello again my friends!!

Wesleys last post has set me thinking.
I have learned in the last few months that it is traditional for Dutch people, but especially the women to kiss each other three times on the cheeks by way of greeting.
If one of these people had just eaten a Buys Zoenenen, would there not be a high chance that the person who is getting kissed also end up with embarrasing brown chocolatey smudges on her cheeks?
A funny thought!!!

Have a good day everyone!

Les

Les, my friend,

don't you think people kiss first and only then are offered Buys Zoenen or other cookies for that matter? And "een kopje thee"?

Although this discussion comes up every year, I'd like to add a few points....

I get a little annoyed when people who barely speak a word of Dutch assume that the word "neger" must have the same meaning and usage as the English N-word. The Dutch have other words that are more directly the equivalent of the N-word.

It also bothers me in general when English-speaking notions regarding words are applied to Dutch words. For example, our notions of the word "negro" should not blindly be applied to "neger". Who am I to be uncomfortable with the word "neger"? Not too long ago English speakers used the word "negro" without any pejorative connotations. Who are we to tell the Dutch that they should adopt English-speaking cultural notions about this word?

And just to be clear about another point: the Dutch sometimes (knowingly or not) use offensive English words in Dutch. Who hasn't been shocked by that? But that is not what is happening here. "Neger" is not an attempt to use the English N-word or the English word "negro" -- "neger" is a bona fide Dutch word that has always existed in their language.

I don't think language should be expunged of all national and ethnic references. There's nothing (seriously) wrong (yet) with "French fries" and "Jodenkoek". I am a little uncomfortable with the idea that "negerzoen" refers to a physical racial trait, but in the end I think it's colourful metaphor and not pejorative at all. Who wouldn't like a big "negerzoen"?

No, the real reason why the word "negerzoen" is wrong and had to be abandoned is because people who identify as "negers" get to decide what upsets them. The same is true with any minority group. Once they've made their views known, the rest of society has to go along. And enough Dutch black people made their views known.

(I hope though that this decision wasn't based on erroneous English-speaker views of the word "neger". It bothers me to think of English speakers lecturing the Dutch about what words the Dutch can use in their own language.)

I think it's relevant that the Dutch government invited many hundreds of thousands of black Surinamers to move to the Netherlands and that the Dutch crown is the head of a number of Caribbean islands (including a few that are English-speaking). Like it or not, a certain amount of sensitivity is needed there. This probably also applies in France, but perhaps less so in Germany.

A few more points about the Dutch resistance to changes like eliminating the word "negerzoen"...

The Dutch seem to have a social or genetic defect (tribalism? groupthink?) that makes it impossible for them to understand why, in a civilised society, minorities can dictate things like this to the majority.

Amazingly, for many Dutch people, it often boils down to numbers. "There are more of us than of them, so they can't tell us what to do." I think this reveals more about the Dutch and how they see the world than anything else. The numbers matter.

They are acutely aware of themselves as being a small fish in a big sea. But on the other hand they are a supremely international people, perhaps among the most internationally minded people in the world. This combination of being a small, tribal country and yet an internationally minded one is at the heart of things. They hang on to their tribalism as a counterweight against the international forces that assail them from their larger neighbours and international openness. If they didn't do this, their country would have been swept away.

The Dutch went through a period where they tried multi-culturalism as a society. But this grand experiment essentially failed. What they want is integration and Dutch values. Now any attempt to be "politically correct", especially when it comes to issues relating to immigration and race are seen as bogus and met with derision. The pendulum has swung the other way.

Also, what matters in the Netherlands is what is "best". They are not so focused as we are on what is "right". When it comes to minorities, the Dutch are always engaging in a balancing act (often based on ruthless quantitative factors) to determine what is "best". Doing the right thing is not really a consideration for them. This is a primary difference between English-speakers and the Dutch.

But the resistance is not just Dutch. Look in Britain how big the squawk has been when someone suggests something outrageous like banning a Christmas display or not having children recite the Lord's Prayer. And multi-culturalism has been soundly rejected in Britain as well as in the rest of Europe.

yes I agree - its important to understand and recognise the different usage of language. The use of the term 'homo' also surprised me here, for the same reason, till I realised it was simply the name given to and used to described gay men, not in a way intended to be offensive at all.
And yes, those in the minority do get to decide what they find offensive and should expect to have their views and protestations respected and acted on accordingly by the majority. I guess thats what happened with the Zoenen.

Last time I read about anyone protesting anything to do with christmas in the UK, it wasnt someone from a minority group making the statement, it was some well meaning person who was 'worried' something 'might' be offensive - apparently they hadnt stopped to actually ask....

I believe that this is exactly what worries the Dutch though - political correctness that addresses something that the supposed 'victims' do not find offensive, but someone else does on their behalf.

sure, but... who has control over that and makes the final decisions?

Anyway I dont think we are in danger of Political Correctness taking over the NL anytime in the near future

Very true - and in any case, even when the victims do find it offensive it only means that they are too sensitive and can therefore be discounted. After all, if we Dutch do not find it offensive it can't really be that bad, toch?

Stone, a very good post!
Btw, the Dutch government did not invite a couple of hundreds of thousands Surinamers (black and otherwise) to move to NL! They had that right when their country became independent and they used their right!

yeah yeah

www.onbewustasociaal.nl !

There's no such thing as political correctness - it's an urban myth.