Hi all, I'm brand new here. I'm looking for a bit of advice.

I live in London but will be relocating to Rotterdam at the end of the summer as my Dutch girlfriend has found a new job in Utrecht.
Now, I run a successful AV and HiFi installation business here in West London. We sell, quote, source AV/HiFi systems and install into clients homes.

Would this sort of thing be possible in Holland at all?
Is there a market for, for example, a personal service where I rip all music to hard drive, use a wireless music system, such as Sonos, setup and install in ceiling speakers and have a wireless remote to control music in all rooms?

This would work best in new flat/house builds where the customer/client could move straight in and this already set up for them. Obviously we would add there music collection when they arrived but this would take 1 day max.

Are there any builders/renovators out there that would appreciate this as an added benefit to their client?

Any feedback would be great and thanks in advance.

regards Tom.

OK. slight change of idea here. Has anyone on here opened a small shop in Amsterdam? If yes, how much would the rent be a month on a 8 x 6 m store roughly?
Shop rent in London in very high, would it be comparable to amsterdam?

I am thinking of opening a small showroom with a unique stylish speaker product that would serve the 'lifestyle' seeking customer. i.e. discrete on wall speaker. This has proved very popular in London.

Any feedback appreciated.

Tom.

Hi Tom
I'm also living in London at the moment and will be moving to Amsterdam shortly. I've been researching shop rents and they are cheaper than in London. For example, 55 sqm in a bad area of Amsterdam starts at 12000 p.a. In a nicer area and on main streets I think you are looking at 300 p/sqm and upwards. This is a lot cheaper than London where in really nice areas like I've found that you can pay around 800 p/sqm.

Hope that helps.

Terry

Hi Terry, thank you, that is helpful. Even though my gf is Dutch I've only been to Amsterdam twice. I would like to set up in a funky, trendy part of town, similar to soho/notting hill/angel islington.
Are there parts of Amsterdam like this or would they be very expensive?

When are you making the move to Holland and what shop are you setting up?
Do you think its risky with the economy or are you pretty confident your business would work?

Tom.

Hi Tom,
I think we are in very similar boats! I am moving to Amsterdam at the end of June to live with my bf. My bf is born and raised in Ams so I know it quite well. I've spent a lot of time in Amsterdam and I studied there for a bit as well. Actually just had the movers pick up my stuff in London today.

I think in terms of neighbourhoods - you are looking at Jordaan or the Pijp. These are trendy, yuppy type areas. There is also the south of Amsterdam which is where older rich people live, think belgravia but not as expensive of course. Anyway I think the rents in the Jordaan and the Pijp are going to be like I said around the 300 per sq m mark. Have you been to the 9 streets? It's in the Jordaan. That is like a grid of hip furniture and clothing stores, cafes etc. Actually why not partner with a cool furnishings store and sell your service from there. Then you dont need your own shop.

The thing that I think is different in terms of retail though in Amsterdam compared to London is I'm not sure about the traffic. You know how in London there are just so many people all the time. I think there is some potential for your product in Amsterdam bc people have very well designed homes. I think you should google to see if it may already exist. Perhaps contact some builders, contractors and make partnerships with them.

Anyway my store is gonna be food related which I think is lacking in Amsterdam. I am a bit worried that the economy is in the toilet but at the same time in this environment you can negotiate lower rent, longer rent free periods and generally prime space should be opening up. I think the economy in Amsterdam has lagged behind london in terms of layoffs etc but it is happening there also. Keep in mind howevever that I dont hink the dutch were ever as consumeristic as the n.americans, londoners etc. so actual spending may not have reduced as much as in these other places where it is actually quite noticeable.

Keep me updated on your progress, would be cool to touch base and share experiences on trying to start up shops in Ams! When are you moving?

Yes, London is so busy all the time. That is something that I really love about it here but i can get a bit tiring. I will be moving to Holland in August, so it would be great to keep each other updated seeing as we are doing very similar things! Actually my gf Suze is a cookery book editor and has worked with Anthony Worral Thompson and Jamie over here so knows a bit about food and I think it was her aim to make an impact and maybe raise awareness of good food in Holland, because as you say, it is somewhat lacking in quality(?)

Will you be opening a specialist food store? I always thought how popular farmers' markets were here in London and maybe that might catch on in Holland?

Are you going to need a loan of some sort and if so would you apply to a Dutch bank? Are you going to start small and build up your premises?

Not familiar with the names in Amsterdam but must have been seen some of those areas and totally agree with the shopping habits of the US/UK. Even in tough times it's takes so long for people to realise that they need to start cutting back on their credit spending and it becomes too late, as we have seen recently, where debts build up and no way to pay for them.

I think I will contact a few furniture stores, thanks for that. I've also mailed off to some architects and contractors as they will be the people that will recommend installations.

Anyway, good luck and I'll send you my email address.

regards Tom.

Hi Tom

I read your post with Interest as I was myself looking for a company offering advice for a Sonos/Bathroom Hi-Fi Installation and could not find one (currently have a 4 zone Sonos system but have no idea on the best options for getting Audio piped through to the Bathroom!). I struggled to find anybody who I would consider using and who did not charge a complete fortune. Sonos' seem to be quite expensive in Holland, especially when you compare the deals with those in the UK (i.e Richer Sounds). I can't really speak for the demand, and I guess it's quite specialist but I'd hope that such an idea would be succesful over here.

As you may have gathered I'm am a Brit living in Amsterdam (originally from Brighton) and have been for 5 years.

I'd Echo what Terry said about the area's that would probably be a best fit, The Jordaan is known as quite a cool shopping area with individual shops, check http://www.theninestreets.com/ninestreetsguide.html for an indication of the kind of shops that you'll find there. Compared to London, this area of Amsterdam is very quiet, but I think you are offering the kind of product that people will actually search out more often than casually purchase. You may have heard of Funda (having a Dutch girlfriend), I just had a quick look on there to see what Shops were showing for Hire. There are only 5 in the Jordaan at the moment, but it might give you an indication of what's around http://www.fundainbusiness.nl/winkel/amsterdam/jordaan/huur/ (Funda is predominantly a residential Real Estate site so this is probably not the best resource!)

De Pijp is another great area, there are two or three Hi-Fi specialists that I know of in that area already (not sure if your proposed offering will be similar or not?) These are Hobo Hi-Fi (http://www.hobo.nl/), Concerto (http://www.concerto-audio.nl/) and Raf (http://www.raf.nl/), the latter being a general Hi-Fi & TV retailer, but offering more hi end offerings than the mega retailers such as Media Markt and Planet.

I hope I have not bombarded you with useless information, I really wish you, and of course Terry all the best and if there are any questions you may have, just let me know, I'd be happy to help.

Cheers

Gareth

Hi Gareth, thanks very much for the info that's terrific. I would hope that it would be successful and I am very surprised that you couldn't find anyone that would help you out, that is unbelievable but potentially great for me if I can promote it! It is such a great product and hugely popular. I really struggle to think why it wouldn't be in Holland. Did you find out about Sonos from the UK? Do people that you show it to seem impressed by it?

I think with regards to promoting my business a showroom may not be the best route to go as I can explain to people what I can do for them over conversation, although I do appreciate that you can't beat seeing equipment in action... which is why I was thinking of using my flat as a showroom initially. it slightly radical, but it will allow me to spend lots of time perfecting the system(s)(because I will live there) and not spend all day in a showroom manning a desk with no one to show to.
With an appointment only proviso and some decent business cards targetting the right people - architects, interior designers, renovators I think we could use the time very well. Provided my Gf doesn't mind people wondering round our flat!

From experience, a system set up to wow the client is all you need and tongues will hopefully start wagging.

I've actually just come from a hifi distributors house and they have built an extension on their house in Newbury that houses a full home cinema and high end stereo using all the components he brings in to the country and runs the whole operation from his office at home. Bringing clients down at appointment only. Brilliant.

Anyway, how are you finding life in Amsterdam? Is it a very different lifestyle from Brighton/UK?

Going to click your links now. Thanks again.

Tom.

You can search Sonos.com to show shop locations within a certain geographical area... from what i could tell there are about 8 businesses in the Amsterdam area that offer Sonos already ... 6 of those have a shopfront, and 4 offer custom installation services - If you plug in Amsterdam you can see for yourself:

http://www.sonos.com/store_locator/?loc=uk...untryISO=nl#map

Not a ton that is centrally located, but easily accessed

Guys, if you go here...

http://www.fundainbusiness.nl/winkel/

...you can fill ijn Amsterdam where it says 'Plaats of Postcode', then fill in your required square meterage where it says 'Oppervlakte' and then choose 'Huuraanbod' where it says 'koop/huur' - then you will find pretty much all the shops to rent in Amsterdam at the moment.

There's quite a lot these days as you can see, the crunch is starting to hit home.

I pay €60K a year for my place, but that's close to 300m2 on the Herengracht. You can find much cheaper places if you stay away from the canals or chique shopping streets.

Try 'de Pijp' area. For instance, this cute little place on the very busy Albert Cuypstraat will only cost you just €16k per year.

http://www.fundainbusiness.nl/winkel/amste...pstraat-204-bg/

That's excellent purple cow, thanks a lot. Very handy. Sounds like you run a big business in Amsterdam. What do you do and have you been affected by the economy? Have you seen some businesses lose their premises?

I own an integrated communications agency - advertising, communications strategy, brand strategy, graphic design and a lot of web stuff.

Yep, we've been affected by the economy, advertising and marketing are usually the first budgets that get cut in a recession. So we are a leaner, meaner operation than we used to be. We have focussed on getting recession-proof clients as much as possible, and that has lead us to signing a big contract with the W.H.O. recently. That has kept the wolves from the door, but it's going to be tough for another 18 months or so, I reckon.

Yes there are a lot of empty office and shop properties around, though Dutch landlords are not lowering rents as much as you would think. Rents per square meter remain the same, the difference is that you can negotiate a tough deal when you are setting up the lease. We took this place 18 months ago, and negotiated a three month rent-free start on a five years lease, and some free kitchen and conference-room facilities. But I hear that people signing a lease now are getting 6 month rent-free periods, and other perks. Only the quoted rent per square meter remains the same.

Just out of interest. How do you think customer service offered in Holland compares to the rest of the world?
I have heard that it isn't that good in the Netherlands from dutch people but that could be just a rumour. Whenever I have been there it seems fine.

What do you think?

Hi Tom

Just thought I’d get back to you on a few of your questions, apologies for the delay, it’s been a bank Holiday Weekend so I’ve been trying to avoid the computer (and yesterday back at work was pretty hectic!)

As has been pointed out, there are a number of Sonos retailers in NL but I don’t really get the impression that it’s as successful a product here as it is in the UK. I first heard about Sonos on a gadget blog some years ago and purchased two ZP100’s two years ago. I bought them from Hobo HiFi (see link in previous post) and I was slightly disappointed by the lack of support and service offered. The transaction was completed as if I was buying a newspaper. Now I had done a lot of research and consider myself savvy enough to know what I was doing with the Installation, however there was no “Do you need any speaker cable” or “Do you have any questions” or “If you run into any problems, just give us a call and we’d be happy to help”. I think the bundle was about 1200Euro’s at the time so I found that surprising. I have since extended my Sonos setup, but I made the purchase in the UK due to favorable exchange rates (and a guaranteed improved better service!) . I think this is where a set up in your flat could be a really good solution, you’ll be able to give people a good personal purchasing experience. The one issue you may encounter is that the informed buyer may be put off purchasing in this manner as they would have done their research, and maybe, like my first purchase just want to buy the thing and know that there is some support if they run into trouble. If you word your website correctly though, this is a problem that I reckon can be overcome. Just my opinion, and just speaking out loud, I am often wrong (just ask my girlfriend ;-)

I have shown the Sonos to a lot of people and everyone is impressed by it. A friend from the UK bought one after seeing mine in action, my Dad would have bought one but he does not really use computers or understand NAS setup’s. He bought a Philips Stremium (which I find incredibly un-intuitive and generally terrible), but he loved the concept of having all his music accessible, a concept he got from seeing my Sonos in action.

I have been really impressed with Sonos support. They are constantly innovating and that even stretches into customer support. I happened to mention Sonos on Twitter the other week and was contacted by their customer support through twitter to see if there was anything I could help with. The forums are great too.

Anyway, enough Sonos love!

For me, Amsterdam is a great city, it’s small, beautiful and lively. I think people coming from London often think its too small, but for me, I like that, I like bumping into friends and having a chat and a drink and the fact that you can be anywhere in the city within 20 minutes on your bike. I also go to a lot of gigs, being able to jump on your bike, meet up with friends and watch live music is pretty cool.

Of course there are negatives, as you mention, customer service is indeed often terrible, to the point where you actually notice if you get a good customer service experience. In my opinion, you should not notice good customer service, but here, I really seem to notice it. When I first moved here I encountered what a lot of my ex-pat friends call the “It’s not possible” attitude (pronounced with a Dutch accent, we spell it “Itsh not poshibol”). I think you do go used to it (either that or it’s actually got better, which I doubt!), but as a good percentage of the Amsterdam is made up of Ex-pat’s, I think it’s definitely a familiar gripe. My Dutch girlfriend loves going back to the UK to shop due to the level of service she gets, that’s coming from a native. I think you just have to put it down to the fact that there are negative aspects of living in any place, you adjust and learn to give as good as you get, but for anyone starting a new business, such as yourself, take this on board as if you deliver on customer service (especially to ex-pat’s), it’s likely that it will be noticed.

Hope your plans are coming along. Would be good to hear how you are getting on.

Cheers

Gareth

About ten years ago an E.U. commission report described customer service in the Netherlands as being the worst in the E.U. Things have improved marginally since then, but of course service has continued to improve in the good countries - so effectively the gap has not narrowed.

It's a cultural issue, the Dutch see giving good service as being demeaning to the person giving the service. So shop personnel pride themselves on not being helpful, you can see the look of triumph in their eyes when they see that you are angry or exasperated. As you leave the store you can here the personnel sniggering behind your back.

Everyone in Holland has a million 'bad service stories to tell. On my very first day in the country I tried to open a bank account, the first two banks I went to told me they were "much too busy" to take on new accounts. That was a big shock for me, coming from the UK where banks are desperate for new clients.

I realise that most of what we've been banging on about is Sonos here but I DON'T JUST DO SONOS. It was mentioned because it just works and is extremely effective at what it does and I love it. A big part of what I do is multi room but also cinema rooms, high quality stereo and discrete multi channel and stereo using in/on wall speakers. We really like Monitor Audio with Arcam and Cyrus with B&W.

With the point of customer service- that is what I would aim at improving and would be my unique (?) selling. Encouraging to hear in a way that it is not top of retailers' lists. As we all know, CS is a priority for ALL of the companies I have worked for in the past. Not to say you have to kiss their ass but to return phone calls and stay on top of emails/questions they have.
In the UK CS isn't that great either, but we deal with American customers and they are very polite but when you visit the US CS does seem to sickly sweet and OTT.
Striking a nice balance between UK and US would be ideal I think.

I would love to give this a go when I eventually get to the Netherlands and really can't wait to start meeting people and approaching potential clients. Hopefully the enthusiasm I have for this will be recognised.

Purple Cow- Its very interesting what you say of the attitude of shop staff. How can they keep a business going if that is the attitude. Like I say, you don't have to bow at their feet but show some interest at least, after the customer has made the effort to travel/find/enter shop.

And for a BANK to say they are TOO BUSY if absolutely bizarre. Come on! Did they take any details from you to call you back! If not that is a travesty.

Gareth- I am absolutely for the whole bike ride to bars/gigs/mates house etc that you cannot do here in London because of the size. You know, I've got 3 of my very best freinds that I would love to see anytime, one lives 1 hour away the other 50 mins away, the other is a drive. NONE I can visit on the bike, and I cycle everyday in London. There is a lot to be said for living close to your mates and they would be ven better mates for it.

Anyway, what gigs to see, Dutch or English? We will have to meet up when I get to Holland. I love live music. We saw Tracy chapman (don't laugh) recently and she was seriously seriously impressive, amazing voice.

With work here going the way it is, (pretty good) I will be in Holland for the end of August. Providing my GF can find a flat for us both.

Better get back to work.

As one area I will be looking into is the renovation market; could anyone suggest an architect or building contractor in either Rotterdam or Amsterdam? Has anyone here used an architect/builder to renovate their property or know anyone that has?

Is architecture in Holland more business oriented than domestic. I understand it is extremely snobbish to employ an architect to modernise your own home! But I have seen it happen.

It looks like we will be living in Rotterdam for a while, will find out the place name and post it here. Sound like a good location about 10mins cycle from the main train station.

if anyone can help me out with a few names that would be great. I've tried google and will contact the ones I have found.

Thanks.

...

IMO you are spot on Yaq! They just care about doing their own thing and give a fouck about the wishes and interests of the customer. "Dat bepaal ik zelf wel" is one of their favourite sayings, meaning that they decide for themselves what they'll do or not. In a way, they "compete" with their customers instead of "serving" them.
However, it must be emphasized that this rather bizarre way of making business offers us expats unexpected opportunities to create special niches for ourselves in which we pamper customers who appreciate old fashioned CS (and are prepared to pay a little extra for it too!). That's what I do myself as a self employed tour operator and it works very well.

Hi All, I have finally made it to Amsterdam and about to start setting up my AV installation business. I need to start marketing my services and apart from my website, that will be up and running shortly, do you think there is anything else I MUST do be marketable?

Also, can anyone recommend a web hosting company? They are all very similar pricing and service and I've narrowed it down two so if no one has any strong feelings towards a particular company, I'll just go with my choices.

Terry, if you are still did you make it?

Lastly, does anyone need wireless music with discrete speaker setup in their home in time for christmas? If yes, let me know!

Regards everyone that has replied previously and thanks in advance to anyone that replies to the above. A link to my website will be uploaded soon.

Thanks, Tom.

We are now Live! at www.chameleonavinstall.com

Needs a few improvements to be made to the site but my colleague will be taking care of this for me.

Thanks to everyone that has followed along with this project, and I hope we willbe successful and that we are on our way to building a brand. I would like to eventually use just the chameleon sign and people will know it will be our AV company

We have our first project quoted and secured which will be a flat in Amsterdam next week that will be stripped out and wireless multi room audio and TVs added. The client has another house in the country so this will be nice and relaxed project and hopefully act as a benchmark for us- lots of photos taken on completion.

Take a look at the site and please give criticism.

Thanks again.

Don't all rush at once! It's so comforting to be a member of such a supportive forum

300 views since the last post and no comments. Wake up.

Well done on realising your goal. Hope it all works out for you!

Hello,

I just came across this post today.
Nice that you were able to setup your business here in Netherlands. Must be hell of a sweat ey?
I worked as a marketing coordinator before so I will blast some thoughts to you Ok?
Regarding your site - it looks very professional yet the subtext font color used made the content hard to read. Take consideration that your market demographic age would be around late 30's and above - usually people that doesn't have 20/20 vision anymore ;-)
I also since your company focus on multimedia entertainment - maybe you can check if your webdev can add up a cool flash intro with a background music - you can use the previous install projects you've done in the past.
Adding up a query option in your site makes it a lot more useable as well - a query page that will be sent directly to your inbox. ;-)

Hope this helps and taken with positive note.
Wish all the best for your business!

~Nessa.

Looks like you located in Rotterdam rather than Amsterdam. Is this correct?