I have about 5-7 years until I graduate. You think I can learn the language well enough to get a IT job?
I have an average-decent french. It took me 5 years to get to this level, mostly due to the fact that I attend a french school (to this very day..).
Do you think I can learn Dutch well enough to get a job in around 5-7 years, studying the weekends only?

Everyone is different, Uner. So I have to say, it depends on the learner and the learner's environment. That you have already gotten over what I call that "second language hump" is a big advantage though.

French lessons are easy to come by at home (I checked your profile before responding; hope you don't mind!)...And you have exposure to French everyday, even outside Quebec, New Brunswick and north-eastern Ontario if you count Radio-Canada and bilingual packaging!

But learning Dutch will probably be more of a self-learning venture, with little opportunity for immersion to help you practise. I personally never came across formal Dutch lessons in Canada...if you're in Southern Ontario or PEI, maybe somebody could privately tutor you. But other than that, you'll have to depend on tapes or computer programs and online resourses. Do you think you're the type to keep up self-study for the long term?

If you want to move here on a work permit or KM visa, you're probably in the right course of study (depending on your specialization?)...and I suspect that most people who have taken that route haven't needed to be fluent in Dutch first to get a job.

Good luck!

No it's not an easy language.
Being an IT guy, I'm used to logic. Having learned Japanese I figured this couldn't be worse... boy was I wrong.

Dutch is a irregular language. there are almost more exceptions than there are rules.
There is a great deal of memorization of which words are "het" or "de", and it matters for how you construct the pronouns, and the verbs.

There are online courses, berlitz, Rosetta stone, and a 75€ book called Dutch For Expats (which I recommend).
The resources are out there, but asking a cloggie to explain a concept is almost a lost cause. These people don't even understand their own language!

So yes, in 5+ years time you can probbaly learn it well enough, I suggest visiting NOS.NL for practice on your listening skills, and i think telegraaf.nl a newspaper which is at a lower level, and supposedly easier to read.

Just out of curiosity, WHY do you want to come HERE FROM Canada? hell I'D move to Canada if I thought they'd let me in!

It's a nice place, utakubeta, but there are definite advantages to living here too!

That being said, I'd be interested in uner's reasons too...Perhaps as a fellow Canadian, I can provide helpful comparisons regarding what he can expect...

Totaly agree with you. I sat there trying to work out what my partner was saying until he announced that he didnt really understand himself. I.E de and het at the start of words. He said he could'nt tell me which ones should be at the start. He knows just because it sounds right to him and i would get used to it over time.....thanks darling, thats a big help

Uner from my point. Ive learnt alot more when im over Holland as im immersed in the dutch language. But i find it hard at home over in england. So just put ur head to it. and if ur ever stuck give me a shout. I might not be as far as other on this forum might be but i can have a good go at ur problems.

Alternately, you could have my partner, the Professor, who can drone on and on and on about grammar rules and the origins of obscure words and idioms for hours and hours...until my eyes glaze over and drool starts to form on the corners of my mouth...

And my Dutch is still shite.

Lol no, but my one day farther in law is like that. Last time i went down he spent god knwos how long getting me to say words i could already say but very slowly...and alot of movement of lips. It very off putting. I dont mind people helping me out but if its to much at once i just glass over and learn nothing. The only thing i can do well is the good old raspy G

atlest i am not the only one who gets that glassed look

Uner, DUTCH is not more difficult to learn than German, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, English or any other language with germanic roots.
It is just DIFFERENT!
Btw, the same goes for Portuguese: it is not more difficult to learn than French, Italian or Spanis. It is just different!
The Dutch language knows 3 grammatical genders : masculine, feminine and neutral. Both masculine and feminine use "de" (the) while the neutral uses "het" (the/it in English). A lot of problems with English speakers start because they do not differentiate the "de" words in masculine and feminine words, which the Dutch, of course, do naturally.
It is true that one needs to memorise the gender of each word, the pronouns and the verbal forms. However, that is true for any language. Have you thought about the declinations in German or Russian, about the subtle verbal forms in English or Greek? In fact, there are no "easy" languages. Each has its own difficulties.
There are NO logic or regular languages in the whole wide world. Not a single one. In particular English and French are known for all their exceptions to the rules. So it is a bit strange that a (very nice) IT person, who is not an academic linguist, tells you that Dutch is very difficult.
I agree though that asking a Dutchman about grammar is a lost cause. But hey, that's exactly the same in any language, except when you speak with someone who has majored in that language (and even then I'm not sure!).
There are several interesting series of Dutch lessons online. One that I like very much and that is very easy is Lauraspeaksdutch.
A word of advice: if you start learning a language, devote 5 minutes every day repeating the new words you learnt yesterday. If you don't, you will have forgotten your first woeds after two weeks...!

Thanks a lot guys, I'll consider the software / websites / ebooks you all recommended.



I'm really looking for better quality of life. I know, Canada's not bad at all, it just seems to me that Europe's a better place.
I don't know though, I guess I wanna go back mostly because I'm nostalgic...
And yeah... i said nostalgic. I am born in Europe.

Ah...

That makes sense...Where were you born? When did you move to Canada?

Just nosy, don't mind me!

CW, I thought I was the only one. My partner just goes on and on how lovely Dutch is, and effortlessly it rolls off of the tongue. . I keep telling him he needs to go on any one of the grammatical games hows they have here and win get us some quick cash. He almost always gets more answers right than the people on TV.

And mu Dutch is shit too!

Those who can't "do", teach? And alternately, those who can do, can't teach their way out of a paper bag!!

How hard is Hawaiian to learn I wonder? They only have 12 letters!

Ah! to begin with, there are MORE sounds in Hawaiian than there are letters! All Polynesian languages are considered by the specialised linguists to be difficult to learn!
Btw, wearing a lei wont help!

Aloha!

Well if sleeping in wooden shoes, and holding a wedge of cheese didn't help, I would suspect the same from Hawaiian. Oh, wouldn't it be nice if it were so easy.

That's a very interesting assertion, as it's a very obscure aspect of the Dutch language that only pops up in a rarely used sentence construct, e.g.:

,,De stoel kraakte op zijn poten.'' (The chair creaked on his legs)
,, ... de sportvisserij en de mensen die haar een warm hart toedragen'' ( ... recreational fishing and the people who feel warmly about her).

There are some heuristics for determining gender of a de- word, but the running joke amongst linguists and language geeks is that de- words are masculine in conversations, and feminine in writing, because native Dutch speakers tend to overcompensate to try to appear literate.

Which meshes very closely with the original intention of the rule, which was introduced in the 19th century to help the formally educated distinguish themselves from hoi polloi.
Hollands, as a dialect, originally knew no distinction other than neuter and non-neuter, the southern and eastern dialects had (and still have) systems of gender that differ significantly from that used in Algemeen Nederlands.

Unless you are a perfectionist, I recommend you gloss over this aspect of the Dutch language, and consult a dictionary for the few cases when you want to get it right in writing (as far as I know, all Dutch dictionaries list word genders, precisely for that purpose). I am a native speaker, and this is what I do.

I might even go a bit further, and state that word gender can be completely ignored if you're only interested in developing the ability to speak, write and understand Dutch. A recent survey by the VU University of Amsterdam concluded that about 43% of all freshmen (the majority of them native speakers with at least twelve years of formal Dutch-language education behind them) made trivial mistakes in the use of articles. Similar mistakes increasingly crop up in newspapers and advertising.

In all but a few rare cases, i.e. when the article used distinguishes between two identically spelled words, not using the correct gender does not cause ambiguities or misunderstandings. It might preclude you from convincing people you're a native speaker, and people may not think you all that articulate, but they will understand you.

*eyes light up!*
Really? He actually understands the language?!!?!
Can I pay for lessons?
I swear if I hear "Dat is een goede vraag.... ik heb geen antward" ONE MORE TIME about some NON-minor detail as to how this bloody language works im going to go postal!

I would love to have a dutch instructor who actually knows something about his own language for once!

Hi Uner, one thing you might try is Les Express, a website that has free online Dutch lessons. You go at your own pace and it covers grammar and vocabulary. I found it more helpful (ie: organized and explanatory) than the Dutch classes I took when I first got here.

Here's the link:

http://www.turks.nu/

When I did a google to find Les Express, I was linked to the Turkish lesson page in Dutch, so went to the left-hand sidebar to switch to the Dutch lessons (in English).

Thanks Sara!

I started with listening to people and watching TV only in Dutch. For books and courses, my first trial was with LOI. I received this big box full with work sheets and books. They just forgot to put the manual in the box. I speak two other languages and never seen such a complicated set for learning a language. I returned them with a note saying that they best give them to a genius.

After this disappoinment, I bought books and CDs from American Book Store in Amsterdam. For beginners to learn basics, I would suggest Dutch for Dummies and a few CDs to support your pronunciation. For those who speaks English I do not think that it is very hard to learnn Dutch.

Because?

If you're in Amsterdam, watch AT5 a lot. That's what did it for me.

Umm learning Dutch is hard. Definitely.

I think maybe you are too new to the process because it's ... hard alright. Since you speak two other languages - it might not be so hard for you ... but for a regular American that only speaks English .. it's hard.

To have any other expectation is to set that person up for a .... rude awakening.
Even Dutch people will tell you the Dutch language is difficult.

That said - I am now learning French it is infinitely EASIER. Why this is the case .. I don't know. Umm though ...I suspect that maybe I already broke my brain ... learning Dutch.

Good advice.

Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday (11:00 and 13:00) there is a half-hour TV programme to help people learning the language - useful if (like me) listening is the main problem.

In my opinion it is going to be nearly impossible unless you receive some sort of formal lessons or tutoring , at least in the early stages (!)..

People who are native German speakers will have more of a headstart though due to the similarities in language & might be able to pick it up just by hanging out, work, school, immersion.

All you guys are totally cracking me up!! As you know, I just got here last week and have not decided on a course of study for the language yet. I thought I decided on Rosetta Stone, but the price in euros has somewhat deterred me now that I didn't get the job I was hoping for -- court reporter for the International Criminal Court at Den Haag. But I am No. 1 on their roster for two years, so please keep your fingers crossed for me.

Anyway, about language, I have not gotten over the "second language hump" as cw talks about and I have permanent numbness in parts of my lips and tounge -- those are my "official" exucses for not learning in advance - LOL PLUS I'm a 53-year-old american who never had to learn another language. ok...that's my backup exucse. LOL

Soooo, now that i've decided i can't afford rosetta stone, any suggestions for cheap and EASY online lessons? I wanted Rosetta Stone because it seemed easiest -- i.e. teaching with pictures like you do with a child.

thanks for the constant source of information AND entertainment!!! LOL

april

Hi April...If you do a search on this forum, there have been a couple of threads that provide links to free online learning. For example:

http://forum.expatica.com/free-online-dutch-t108519.html

Good on you re: the Court reporter job...I did see that job, but for some reason didn't apply -- probably time constraints because I was in the middle of moving at the time. The process was somewhat involved, if I remember correctly...

Onwards and upwards...other opportunities are in the pipeline!

WAIT!! WHAT??? Are you a court reporter, too???? WOW!!!! Are you working? I brought my office with me, but would rather work in a coffee shop (no quote marks -- i mean a coffee shop that serves coffee -- LOL) But am open to court reporting opportunities, too. I "retired" from my job with King County in Seattle. I can't draw my pension until i'm 55, but i have my 20 years in , so it is intact, but i'm still too young to not work.

I'll save my questions about reporting for later. Maybe we can meet for coffee and talk about it. (I said coffee - not "coffeë" LOL. I know you canucks!!! Only from experience '-)

looking forward to hearing from you.

april

Lot's of us moved here as er .. older Americans .. and we had to struggle learning Dutch - some us still struggle. Hee hee!

That said... if you are serious about learning Dutch ... you need to attend a structured language course and be done with it.

I think those online classes are good to learn some words for vacation or as a refresher course for those that learned Dutch years ago .. but to sit down and LEARN the language from scratch with those online classes, I don't believe it's possible. (I don't care what they advertise!)

There are just waaay too many idiosyncratic areas of the language that will certainly go well over your head if you don't have someone that is trained to interpret what they should mean for you. In many areas .. there is simply no one to one correspondence to English. Language acquisition for a mature American is nothing to sneeze at.

Plus .. the pronunciation.

I know people that DID attend classes but they did not get the right kind of attention .. so their pronunciation is ... poor.

Lot's of people take learning Dutch lightly when they move here because they cannot believe it can be so hard (I was one of those people) but after the first year if study .. their tune changes completely.

There was someone on these threads that studied on her own. When she moved here and got tested for placement in a class and she tested way high on written skills … but then tested way low on speaking skills so that she had to start in the beginners class anyway! I’ll bet she had unlearn many things that she misunderstood along the way.

There are 4 areas - written, speaking, comprehension and reading (I think, but ummm I forgot the 4th area) that they test you on. Most people are stronger in 1 that the others but it should not be that much of a difference.

Sorry, but I think if you are serious .. you need to just come up with the cash. Try your local ROC classes ... I hear they are cheaper than regular classes.

No, no, I saw the job posting! Still pounding the internet pavement unfortunately...I wish I could grab a job in retail, as that was always my backup when money was tight, but you need to know Dutch (or at least another language besides English).

And I stay away from that "coffee"...allergic to the stuff...

That was probably me! Totally screwed up my inburgeringscursus and subsequent testing as a result.

And I totally agree with you ouloveit...I was just providing options until classes resume in September, really.

I'm not too keen on the ROC (you get what you pay for on the most part), but Volkuniversiteit is a reasonably priced option...and they offer inburgeringscursus, which is what I suspect she'll have to do...and I believe they are subsidized, but the system's changed so much since I went, I don't know the details.

I'm not too keen on the ROC (you get what you pay for on the most part), but Volkuniversiteit is a reasonably priced option...and they offer inburgeringscursus, which is what I suspect she'll have to do...and I believe they are subsidized, but the system's changed so much since I went, I don't know the details.
[/quote]

There are so many ways in which you can learn a language ... depends on how YOU learn. By listening radio/tv, but also by just putting it on and NOT consciously listening ... by taking a book and studying ... by getting a little tourist guide in Dutch and just trying to talk to anyone that's open for a conversation .... etc etc etc

It's new to me that Volksuni offers inburg. cursus ... DUTCH lessons yes, but these courses???? Hm maybe in Amsterdam, could be?

But what you can try, is go to the municipality. There are possibilities also for people from EU-countries to get a subsidized course, just ask. They changed the law last year, but not everybody knows that, especially the municipalities:-) don't

Done it all, dear.



Haarlem:
http://www.volksuniversiteit-haarlem.nl/pa.../inburgeren.htm



I don't know about everybody else, but Aprilinamsterdam is from North America (ik ook)...but good info to know if any EU-ers are interested...