Hello expats,

The story you are about to witness is that of a very confused but intrigued American girl. I've read all the posts on this forum that are relevant, but still have not been able to figure out 'dating' culture in Holland.

Herein lies the story, significantly abridged for your sake. I've been hanging out with a Dutch guy who tells people we are 'together' despite the fact that we've never even kissed and he's never asked me to have dinner with him/ see a movie/ anything remotely 'datey.' I might also add that he seemed a bit confused when, the first time we met, he asked me to go home with him and I refused graciously but immediately.

So...

1) When does sex usually happen between Dutch men and women who are interested in more than a brief fling? (This is hard to determine for those of us acclimated to the 'approximately-3-date rule.') Do relationships tend to emerge after sex happens?

2) What is the typical courtship process like? (I understand Dutch women tend to initiate more often than in the US... so men are relatively non-initiative?)

3) Is 'making him wait' considered uncommon in Dutch culture? I'm not talking ridiculous lengths of time here, but I think it is understood that most American women interested in a relationship with a man will not bed him immediately.

Thanks in advance!

I am from The US as well and it's been my experience that aside from obvious cultural differences and language .. the men here are mostly like the men in other western countries.

That is ... if he is telling everyone that you two are 'together' as a couple but you have never had a date, a kiss etc.. ummm something's not right. I would confront him on this immediately - just don't stand there and let him get away with telling folks that story.

If he asked you to come up to him apartment (maybe for sex, maybe not) the first time you met him and you suspect that maybe he is put off because you did not hop into bed with him .. umm something's not right. Surely he does expect you to jump in the hay THAT soon.

I think a normal Dutch guy (like all guys) like it when the girl makes the first move because it makes it easier on him. Yes, in this culture many of the girls do hit on the guys first .. something we would never do in The States ... but I lot of guys will hit on you first just like back home.

3 date rule? Still applies ... plus or minus a date or two depending on the situation - just like back home. If the guy is trying to get me into bed too soon, I will back off. If he keeps trying such that I get the feeling that's all he wants from me ... I will dump him, just like I would dump a guy in The States. There are users here too.

So YEAH! hee hee .. he's gonna have to wait! He should just be happy that he gets to be seen with me in public.

TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. You are writing this post because deep down ... you know something is not right with this guy.

The basics rules of courtship apply although .. um you might meet more Dutch men that are socially maladjusted. This is something that I've noticed here as well - so maybe he's one of those!

Meaning they don't know how to ask you out, they are awkward and clumsey in social situatioms, they say innappropriate. insensitive things etc. In that case .. dump him because you will waste years on someone that will never change while a normal guy that you might have had something real with ... will just pass you by.

So ask this guy point blank - what's up. If he gives you a story that still makes no sense - make it known to him that you are not interested and move on. Lot's of nice Dutch guys would like a nice girl like you.

Kick the a**hole to the curb immediately! The world is full of fine guys!

I'm pretty sure, in a country as big as the States, that girls do hit on guys...

I'd say just forget the culture rules and just get on with it, take control if he wont, follow your instinct reading the body language... why play games missing out on all that pleeeaaaasuuuure.

Thanks ouloveit, emilio, and wesley for your responses so far! Just wanted to clarify a few things...

I definitely understand that Dutch men have commonalities with American men and are not actually Martians-- but I've witnessed what I would call 'bizarre behavior' from other Dutch guys I know-- for example, a very good-looking guy flirting with an equally-attractive girl, only to abandon ship completely when a rather UNattractive one comes along and aggressively hits on him.

I do not reside in Holland and I am speakly humbly from the exposure I have had to their culture (and Danes/ Swedes/ Germans as well), but Dutchmen seem lazier about 'getting a girl' in general.

But what I am quite confused about still is-- in the UK and US, I can be 'hanging out' with a guy until Hell turns cold, but if I don't get asked out on something resembling an official date (one-on-one and somewhat romantic in nature-- movie, dinner, etc.), I a] won't consider it a relationship and b] won't sleep with him. The Dutch way of hanging out with you while also hanging out with the circle of friends seems like far too little effort and overly platonic to me. Would my opinion be considered crazy in Holland??


I do like this guy and he definitely qualifies as a "fine guy" haha-- so it's not like he's an 'asshole' and is telling people things I wouldn't want to hear. I'm perfectly fine with us heading towards a relationship-- I am just lost as to WHEN the Dutch usually consider two people a couple.

I agree that many Dutch guys just want things to be 'easy' so if an attractive girl makes him 'work' to get her .. he might forgo her for an unattractive girl that's already shown some interest in him. So .. he doesn't have to do anything to get her.

This is because often Dutch men have been 'cowed' by Dutch women's interpretation of women's lib. This is a hugely long story but bottom line .. the Dutch woman think being 'liberated' is upsurping the man's role in many ways. So the men can get kind of cowed into not doing ... what comes naturally. This is a long story....

For example:
There are 2 things that Dutch people (men) have repeatedly commented to me. 1. Are those your own teeth? (Lot's of bad mouths here - but of course these are my own teeth and they are completely natural! Hee hee!) The second thing is - 'You're so Feminine'. ERrrUUU? (Skobbie Do voice).

I think a lot of the girls chop off their hair for practical reasons about age 30 .. something I will never understand and they do other stuff so a normal American woman living here is seen to be sooo Feminine ... but only in comparison to the other women I think. Even my boss thinks this ... and I just look at him like ... 'why shouldn't I be Feminine?'

These are my experiences.

This is a very couples oriented culture in my and my friends estimation. I noticed this right away. Guys/gals like to be in some relationship .. even if they are not very happy. Of course, people do break up just like everywhere else but seemingly in no time at all .. they will be locked into another serious relationship.

When I first moved here one of my colleagues told be that within 6 months of breaking up with someone - will be serious about someone else and I thought he was exaggerating. But no - it seems they don't take much time to be alone, enjoying their own space, contemplating the mistakes they may or may not have made etc. No - they will get hooked up immediately.

Of course, EVERYONE is not like this, this is just the pattern that I've noticed since I moved here.

Another thing is that after about 5 - 6 months the guy will expect you to move in with him. Hee hee! This is often the time when I have to have a serious talk - because I would never do such a thing. It would take YEARS for me to live with/marry someone - but since there is a housing stortage here many people have incorporated this practice into their courtship!

Hee hee! I don't need a place to stay! Hee hee! (I could tell you a lot about this one!)

I like the Dutch LAT relatie. LAT in the Dutch culture means (Living Apart Together) which in American terms means ... ahh 'DATING' hee hee! Because otherwise, people are already living together ... and so long term dating is not so common here.

Anyway, back to your situation - if the guy is spending time with you along with circle of friends in that platonic thingy ummm you and this guy must be fairly ... young.

I say this because my younger friends have complained about this - but I'm older so I have never had this experience. That platonic thing is for the for the lazy and is .. a sort of courtship... but for the young. Umm if he is not young then he MAY be one of those socially maladjusted guys I mentioned earlier - so be on the alert - because you will end up stuck with a guy that's ALWAYS doinf maladjusted things.

If you cannot abide this ... and he is not a ratfink - you are just gonna have to confront him. The Durch appreciate directness - so be direct. Either it will confirm that you are justr friends or it will open the line of communication so that you CAN start really dating ... without all the friends.

Three's a crowd in this situation.

Trust me - regular Dutch guys of any age know how to date a girl they are interested in! Be open with him. Ask why he is referring to you as a couple when clearly there is nothing romantic going on. If he says he wants to remain 'friends' then you need to be fine with that but let it be known that you will be actually dating other guys.

He's gonna have to be clear with you because in the end .. it's your time you are wasting by tolerating this peculiar behavior.

btw - I am the only female replying to you in this thread - the rest are men. Maybe some other women can offer their input.... If you want to PM me - fine.

Ouloveit, I sent you a PM.

I must say... regardless of my own situation, it is rather refreshing to come across a culture where the men do not view commitment as a fatal disease lurking in the shadows, waiting to contaminate them! This is definitely how the majority of attractive, educated, younger American men in metropolitan cities view relationships. The men I have dated have either been toxic bachelors or suffocatingly marriage-minded. The Dutch generally appear to have a healthier perspective.

Of course they do...it happens everywhere...

Okay .. we'll talk!

I dont think this LAT or how the dutch men date show that they view commitment in a good way. It seems to me that they like a relationship but as oulovit said will be in one that they dont like for the sake of it but will move on when convenient so in reality waste your time, in a sense biding their time.

The LAT thing is rather interesting. So moving in together after a few months of dating is totally 'normal' in Holland? Wow. That's a huge cultural difference!

Ah! I came across a book that you all might find interesting... and I suppose it explains many of these 'peculiarities' with Dutch men.

It's called "Masculinity and Femininity: The Taboo Dimension of National Cultures" and though it was written in the 90s by a Dutchman and an American, it sounds like their conclusions are still very much relevant-- actually, they essentially say this: "Mas/Fem differences have deep historical roots and are unlikely to disappear in the future."

Here are some of their conclusions (I'll abbreviate when possible):

-US and NED score fairly close on 4 out of 5 indexes on national culture; only on masculinity (we'll call it "Mas") is there a wide gap

-These researchers define Mas in terms of behavioral Mas

-US ranks in the top 33% (#15) in most Mas countries while NED is among the least Mas (#51-- reversed numbers!)

-US scored slightly more individualist than NED

-US women scored more Mas than NED men

Hi, I have replied to your latest PM on this subject too.

Yes, I think these points are funny!

The masculity has been 'cowed' out a lot of these guys ... though not all of them.

Nah, you got the wong end of the stick. It's quite the opposite actually.

LAT as in Living Apart Together basically means you are in a serious committed relationship but each person keeps their own house, as opposed to living together in one place. It's got to do with the housing shortage, you don't want to end up homeless if it doesn't work out.
Also means you've got two places to hang out in.....(or sublet 1, but that's officially illegal).

what an interesting read ..