I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the fact that some people have decided to reject the notion of organised religion because they view god as a fictional characer.

I know that some people regard atheism as just another version of a religion but unlike organised religion atheism does not seek to interfere with people's freedoms. Nor does it universally lead to hatred and intolerance like all other organised religions.

I just wanted to express that as it's not often enough that organised religions are condemnded for being so divisive and hateful.

As an atheist, I agree with your points. Atheists don't invade other lands, or carry out suicide bombing missions, we leave that to the "Men of God".

And as my signature alludes to ... maybe 'dumb' animals ain't so dumb!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Ccompletely irrelevant and another topic entirely
Still the best commentary I've found:


http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Saw an interesting piece by a Melbourne journalist recently, following the World Youth Day in Sydney. An excerpt follows, with which I am in complete agreement:

There is a school of thought that suggests atheists should not call themselves atheists but just say we apply rational thought to everything and religion is no exception.

As Sam Harris, author of The End Of Faith, puts it, "I think that 'atheist' is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology.

We simply do not call people 'non-astrologers'. All we need are words like 'reason' and 'evidence' and 'common sense' and 'bullshit' to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion."

I don't care what people believe in, but I do care that religion impacts on political discourse, public policy and that it stunts the ability of people to think for themselves and question. And that it kills people and causes suffering. But most of all I care that the invisible electric fences that are wired in the minds of children brainwashed by religion are difficult to remove. And impossible if you don't even know they're there.

A quote attributed to Stephen F. Robert sums it up for me: "We are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Full story:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/red-hot-e...as.html?page=-1

Nihiliism has nothing to do with atheism.

I have a morality and purpose in my life. I simply choose not to believe that some fictional book written thousands of years ago has any relevance or meaning to my life. If I was to choose a fictional book to live my life by I'd believe in Jackie Collins as at least those books have some sort of relevance to the 21st century

Especially seeing as these books promote nothing but hatred and intolerance against non-believers

My Dear Brothers and Sisters,

God has no borders. God loves ALL.

Peace and Love,

The Messiah.

Count me in. I don't believe in god(s), fairies, leprechauns, faith healing, astrology or any other pseudo science mumbo jumbo.

And just to prove I'm still happy and contented, here are a two of my favourite atheist comedians.
Dave Allen and George Carlin
may they rest in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhIaOFbrEtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=casUr9UsabY

enjoy

I fear that these two souls will already be feeling the unending heat and turmoil of their actions on the Earth they walked.



With The Love Of God.

The Messiah.

An Engineer Dies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An engineer dies and reports to the Pearly Gates. St. Peter checks his
dossier and says: "Ah, you're an engineer, but you worked for a high-tech
startup company and got rich. You've had too good of a life, so now you
can't come in here."

So the engineer reports to the gates of hell and is let in. Pretty soon, the
engineer is dissatisfied with the level of comfort in hell, and starts
designing and building improvements.

After a while, they've got air conditioning and flush toilets and
escalators. The computers are all upgraded and there are speaker wires
running to every room. Even the clocks on the VCRs are set. The engineer
becomes a pretty popular guy.

One day God calls up Satan on the telephone and says with a sneer, "So,
how's it going down there in hell?"

Satan replies, "Hey, things are going great. We've got air conditioning and
flush toilets and escalators. The computers are faster than ever and we've
got music in every room. There's no telling what this engineer is going to
come up with next."

God replies, "What? You've got an engineer? That's a mistake, he should
never have gotten down there! Send him back up here, now."

Satan shouts back, "No way! I like having an engineer on the staff, and I'm
keeping him."

God says, "Send him back up here or I'll sue."

Satan laughs uproariously and answers, "Yeah, right... and just where are
YOU going to find a lawyer?"

ABJECT BLASPHEMY DEAR SISTER. Shall we hold hands and pray for appeasement for your sullied soul?

GOD IS LOVE!!! I heartedly lie before any opponents.

THE Messiah.

Maybe God loves us all, but how do you explain believers hating each other? Also has God authorized YOU to speak in his name?

My Dear Sister In The Lord.

I AM the annointed One.

With The Blessings Of The Dear Lord God,

The Messiah.

I am not SISTER. Did you want to say "annoying one"?

Well, now that you are here, how old is Colorado Canyon?

mr messiah STAY OUT OF OUR OWN GODLESS THREAD or we will kick your butt out. We don't want to have anything to do with you. We don't believe in you and never will. You are the worst calamity ever befallen to mankind. Some of us (not me!) even HATE your hypocritic guts. You are personally responsible for almost all the crimes ever committed on earth, beginning with two brothers named Abel and Cain.

btw: DO NOT REPLY. GO ELSEWHERE. leave us alone, you freak

I am in!

I'm out!

Nice to have you here, Wes! Let's play pool!

Enjoy your life.

About atheism not oppressing anyone: Stalin was an atheist and he sent many priests and Christians to the concentration camp just because of their belief in God. So, atheists can be just as oppressive as any religion. E.g. a North-Korean spy who put a bomb in a South-Korean plane was an atheist. She did that for her ideology, which includes materialism and atheism.

Personally, I am a pantheist, aka the polite form of atheism. God=Nature, Nature=God. If there are any supernatural realms, I don't know for sure, but if we mean by it the many wonders and paradoxes of the quantum world, then perhaps there are such realms.

I like very much what Allan Bloom says in the Closing of the American Mind, "Here one sees the traces of the Enlightenment's political project, which wanted precisely to render the Bible, and other old books, undangerous." (Bloom implies that the Founding Fathers were enacting this project when founding liberal democracy in America).

I also enjoyed the videos published by the authors of http://godisimaginary.com and http://whywontgodhealamputees.com . Well, Mr. Jesus was not real. So what? Does that make His message less pertinent? As Nietzsche argued, Christianity was Platonism for the masses. Plato advocated communism, therefore it is very normal that, as Kautsky argued, Christianity was a communist messianic organisation from the Antiquity. Christ radiates like an icon of the ideals of Freemasonry, yet in the context of two millennia ago: all men and women are brothers and sisters; they all have One Father; they should love each other; they should have everything in common (property); they should overturn the corrupt regime of the priests, wealthy people and politicians; the poor are the deserving, etc.

To each his own.

Seems to me there would be more peace in the world if people would just accept others in their way of living and believing or lack thereof. I can surely appreciate an atheist so long as the atheist respects my belief of something different. Unfortunately, organized religions have a terrible reputation of brainwashing people & preaching that their way is the only way. I'm Catholic and raised Catholic but have never met a priest who told me I'm on the way to hell. In my church we learn about forgiveness, understanding, and responsibility to help others.

It all depends on who you want to listen to. Pres. Obama's former pastor is a great example of encouraging people to dislike others & preaching some negative views. Being a Christian & the way in which my parents raised me, I could never belong to such a congregation. While I do believe in God, I can certainly respect those people who do not, and it should not be anyone's intention to try and persuade anyone of anything. Just let everyone live in the way which makes them happy. Why's it so difficult?

I've often wondered myself...

Of course individual atheists can be nasty. But using Stalin as an emblem of atheism is no different to using Osama Bin Laden as an emblem of religion.

Whatever its faults may be atheism does not generally try to impose their interpretation of the world on society at large. Throughout history millions have been killed in the name of religion.

When you learn something useful you do not call it brainwashing, when you learn something bad, you call it brainwashing. Yet the process is the same: whether you call it learning or brainwashing, you are persuaded to accept other people's thoughts and ways of behaving, and make them your own (regardless of whether it concerns computer engineering or religion).

Since it is not clear what good and evil are (various people have various definitions of what is good and what is evil), using the word brainwashing as opposite to learning is using a double standard. If it were clear what good and evil are, then it were no double standard. Since this is not clear, someone's brainwashing means learning for his fellow man/woman. Therefore, brainwashing is subjective, being function of the beliefs of the person who calls something brainwashing.

I'm trying to say that I could understand an atheist point of view as to why they would believe that organized religions may "brainwash" people. That goes to another question I had asked on another thread in "Indian Medicine Man" in this forum. There is a fine line when it comes to organized religions and cults. The definitions are vague in today's world. To believe in anything at all, blindly- is IMO brainwashed. And there are branches within organized religions which are questionable in their practice.

Learning is to take into account all what can be said about a subject (or mostly) and to make up with one's own mind whether it is relevant or not. Being brainwashed ( as in a cult community in Texas, USA where all the women were taught from the time of practically birth that they belong to certain men & had their children taken away in effect) means not having a choice.

I'm Catholic, and some people have decided to try and brainwash me in science class. Brainwash- because it conflicts with my personal beliefs.

Welcome to the kaleidoscope of the human mind. Truth is only what we decide it to be.

To each his own.

My point was: there is nothing wrong with brainwashing. You couldn't cross the street safely or drive a car properly if you were not brainwashed into taking account of traffic rules. People who cross streets and drive cars don't waste their time into debating traffic rules (when they are crossing the streets or driving the car), they just cross the street or drive the car.

Public education has a duty to the common good of brainwashing people into accepting science and what science says. E.g., in order to be a good nurse, you have to know something about bacteria and how they are transmitted. This is not a matter of debate, it is something known for sure, and people should accept it in order to work as nurses.

I do not think that the "believers killed this many, atheists this many...." line of dialogue really helps move debate forward. All kinds of beliefs have been used to justify oppression and killing. Are there examples of religion being used like that today? Yes there are. But so too atheistic ideologies such as in North Korea and in China (albeit in the latter somewhat mixed up with power and economics)
Atheists such as Richard Dawkins do argue strenuously in putting across their views in a way that certainly does seem like wishing to 'impose their interpretation of the world' (And yes I have read his writings) That said many other evolutionists, atheistic not just believers in a divine being, distance themselves from such an approach.
Where does debate, become imposition? Where does disagreement with someone else become oppression? Care is needed. Real debate to take place or emotive sound bites to be thrown around? Of course we are all human and discussion should not be separated from who we are. But how does a discussion of atheism appreciation or critique get moved forward if it stays at the 'believers do this, atheists do that'level?
Not sure if that makes sense?

PS to the author of the engineer/lawyer joke - good one!