So pretty much everything I've read and been told has left me with the impression that being social in Holland can prove to be a challenge.

Long and short, I've been told that Dutch people tend to run in closely knit social groups that have been together for years... often going back to university or secondary school. That being the case, I've been led to believe that making friends can be difficult.

But given some limited experience where I spent time in Den Haag, Amsterdam, and Leiden, I feel like I may have seen a different side of things that might be worth discussing.

I'm wondering if the social dynamic that I so often hear described might be more specifically a description of highly educated professionals and the like and may not be as accurate as it pertains to people of more intermediate education and/or blue collar workers.

The only reason I say this, is that in my observations, it seemed very common for colleagues who have little to no history outside of the workplace to spend time together after work for a drink or dinner, etc. These were not management level employees, but rather rank and file bookkeepers, administrative staff, accountants and other such folks. Many had some post-secondary educations, but I don't believe any of them had attended university.

In other words, I'm beginning to wonder if the rather harsh view of Dutch social dynamics may be based more on a subculture self-perceived elite professionals with higher educations and higher salaries. I think this is a possibility since these are the very people many expats will be spending the biggest part of their work lives around. It only stands to reason since the Netherlands has reasonably discouraging immigration laws and place great importance on the skill level and education of migrants.

So, are the social observations I keep hearing a generalization based on experiences with upper-class snobbery or is does it extend to other socio-economic/occupational groups.

Discuss....

This post has been edited by CobaltKaige: Jun 17 2009, 10:27 PM

Hello my friend,

I am not 100% sure what it is you are asking us?
I fully realise that I have never been to University or anywhere [but I do know a lot about trees and horticulture] and so know less about things like Dutch social dynamics may be based more on a subculture self-perceived elite professionals with higher educations and higher salaries than others, but from what I know of the Dutch, they seem friendly enough to me.
Although I have been called a Mafkees [idiot] by a complete stranger once!

I hope this helps?

Les

Thanks for your reply, Bigger Tree.

Okay, maybe I went a little nuts in my initial post. Lemme see if I can break it down into a more direct question.

I've been told that making friends as an expat in Holland can be difficult because the dutch tend to stick to older friends from school etc.

That said, is this true at all career levels and social/economic classes? Is this a syndrome more specific to more highly educated people and/or those more successful professionally?

Then, I suppose there's the question as to whether or not the expat community, often highly trained professionals who tend to deal with other highly educated Dutch professionals, might be perpetuating a myth about Dutch social dynamics. Is it possible that upper-class snobbery may be to blame for a stereotype that really only applies to a small portion of the population?

Does that make my questions a little more clear. I know the last bit is still a little convoluted.

This post has been edited by CobaltKaige: Jun 18 2009, 01:07 PM

It's not only the Dutch, northern Europeans in general tend to have this complex.
And don't even think about wanting to socialise with Dutch colleagues outside of work! again, another typical northern European hang-up (Brits are the only exceptions here))

This post has been edited by Illuminatus: Jun 18 2009, 01:01 PM

I don't think it has anything at to do with a Dutch person's educational level. I've met Dutch people from various walks of life - ex-boyfriends (and their friends etc) neighbors, co-workers etc ...

Umm no. No need in reading all that into into it. It's pretty much a cultural thing and like Illuminatus says, it's a Northern European social construct. I know people that live in France, Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg and Denmark that have experienced the exact same dynamic.

It is a 'Closed Culture'.

To clarify, I think in general Dutch people are friendly in a social settings. But being Friendly and making Friends are two different things.

I live in Den Haag and attend happy hour-type gatherings that are non-work related so I talk to strangers all the time. I also go to weddings and the like where I don't know anyone and I have to make my way. No problem.

Dutch people are as friendly in social settings as people anywhere else.

The thing that the expat does not understand ... is that the Dutch (and many Europeans) make a close social circle (Kring) early - before age 21 and that remains their only source of close friendships .... for the remainder of their lives.

They do not make a new friends from work or whereever, start hanging out with that person outside of work on a regular basis, go shopping, have dinner out, meet each others wives/husbands, help that person move to a new house etc.

In general, they are not gonna meet a new person, CLICK with that person and welcome them into their well-established social circle. Noooo that would never happen. In fact, even if you know that person many years, I doubt if you will ever encounter that person's close circle of friends.

You will be friends with a Dutch person you think but when they have a birthday party (they don't have any other parties here) and you will not be invited. I mean - now how would they explain your showing up? You are not part of their 'kring'. You have to understand this.

There are two levels of friendships:

- Close friendships the people I'm discussing above
- 'Kennis' .. which means an 'acquaintance' or in other words ... everybody else. Hee hee!

That's it.

In The States (my home country) there are no such social rules. Therefore you continue to make new close friendships with new people the whole of your life. You may have several circles of close friends because some of them are still in the town in which you were raised, some are still in the University town where you attended school 1000 miles away.. some you met through work .. some are here in The NL because you didn't move here with allllll your friends and family hee hee! You had to make new close friends ... and the list goes on and on. There is ALLLLWAYS an oppurtunity to bring someone new into your life! That's FUN!

In the Dutch culture this would never happen - you have close friends within that same closed circle and everyone else is ... kennis.

Actually, the Dutch think this is being false because surely you cannot have more than 1 circle of close friends. See what I mean .. it's the way people think about friendships and this has nothing to do with your educational level.

People are reserved in their friendships. They are closed ... not open in this arena.

Of course, there are exceptions to this rule ... we are all human but by and large ... this is the social dynamic here.

They think this is completely normal and if I try to explain why this is 'closed culture' they never quite get it - so I stopped trying. Now, I DO know some enlightened Dutch people that realize that this is a closed society - so again .. there are exceptions.

Í don't take offense and neither should you. I just enjoy the friendships (such as they are ) with the Dutch people I know but mostly I rely on the friendship of people from other countries and move on.

This post has been edited by ouloveit1: Jun 18 2009, 02:18 PM

I really, really despise this 'closed circle' mentality!!! I can't emphasise enough how much I hate it.

In my opinion, this mentality is nothing but insecurity. if someone only wants to hang out with their little circle, then they're obviously afraid that a new person may be 'better than them' or something of a similar nature.
I find it extremely sad that some people have a need to be in their own little groups. also, these kind of people tend to act very snooty, desperately trying to preserve their fragile ego.

I'm never like this, nor are any of my friends, were always open to meeting new people.

This post has been edited by Illuminatus: Jun 18 2009, 02:26 PM

The social culture regarding making friends definitely does not apply in the UK. For a start most of your friends from school would move around the country or abroad, making it impossible to keep a tight closed circle. I was also thinking if the smallness of Holland had anything to do with this, and the fact that most people are born, raised and go to work in a very small area, therefore making it much easier to keep in touch with school friends.

I have recently been in contact with some old school friends, who I knew when we left school for a few years but practically everybody had moved on to other countries or way outside London.

Personally I made a few good friends in most of the jobs I had in London and at Uni so ended up with a very divert mix of friends from every walk of life - rich, less well off, Spanish, Iranian, Indian, African. Most have gone their separate ways but I still keep in touch with friends from all over the world thanks to the Internet. I have also made 3 very good friends in Holland who are all expats.

In the UK there is (for good or bad) a culture of meeting outside work for at least 1 drink before you go home, which just doesn't happen in Holland. People have their tight knit best friends circle, and then a separate one for say playing tennis, another for another activity etc. They don't see the point of mixing these groups up as it would mean having to invite a larger group to their birthday celebrations. For me, after going to all the birthday celebrations with my partners circle of friends, the boredom of seeing exactly the same people invited year after year after year is surprising, not to mention boring. But thankfully I have my own friends so we also go to lots of other stuff - I have also met other people who my expats have made friends with so my circle is expanding rapidly!

I think it's worth pointing out that it's not as hard to make friends with Dutch who are out of their zone (ie: they have moved away from the area where their 'kring' is). I have Dutch friends but they are people who pretty much 'out-of-towners', usually moved from outside Randstad to inside.

The way to find these people is to smile lots. The 'stayputs' will just treat you like you must be an idiot for smiling all the time, but the people WORTH making friends with will make themselves known and respond everytually For every rule there are exceptions, as Ouloveit said.

Out of interest, when I lived in Italy, the social structure is actually very similar to the UK.
There isn't a closed circle mentality there, and people would often go for drinks together after work.

Yes, could be some truth here.

I hate it too- what a waste of your life to exclude yourself from getting to know new people and learn new things and situations

Ironically, I've had the opposite occur where some Dutch people want to make friends so badly they get really pushy and demanding that it puts me off completely. I think those types have trouble with the concept of a naturally-progressing friendship....

They probably read the complaining on expatica and decided to proof the expatica folks wrong

Totally. My Dutchie's expanded his circle beyond his childhood best friends because of his music. Bands come and bands go, so you are always meeting new people and expanding the circle. At our wedding reception, he had close friends dating all the way back to when he was seven...and friends he's just known for a couple of years...and they all know each other too.

I wonder though if the Dutch could be onto something because it seems that the people I connect with the most on Facebook are my oldest friends from school. We "reunited" there after losing touch for over 30 years, but we communicate like it was yesterday...

Alright, I give up. I'm a Dutchie, and I can't understand you people.

1. Most people don't get to pick their co-workers. Nevertheless, they're likely to spend eight hours a day in their presence, not by choice. That's way, way more time they spend hanging out with their supposed 'inner circle' of friends. It's probably even more time than they spend with their families at home. A co-worker could be the most kind, friendly, entertaining person I've ever met, and I still wouldn't have the slightest urge to spend more time with him or her than that.
2. Birthday parties are boring, stiff social gatherings that allow the lady of the house to prove herself to her mother-in-law and family. I've read about you guys complaining how utterly dull these things are, and you still take offense at being excluded from them? Why? Do you guys think we're secretly having fun when you're not around?

I think you are completely missing the point, which is: if you meet somebody at work who is fun, entertaining etc. why would you deliberately discount them just because you spend time with them at work? It's just limiting your already tight knit social circle even more and stops you expanding your horizens. Who knows where it may lead if you allow that kind, friendly person into your personal life? Can't you see how narrow minded it appears to other people hearing this sort of statement?

Why on earth would somebody want to prove themselves to their family and in-laws? Surely the fact they are part of the family would mean other family members would know what you are like? Trust me, nobody would take offense at being excluded from these tugid events. I believe what you have read is expats being excluded from all aspects of family life BECAUSE they have declined the invite to the party.

Neither would I and rarely did because no matter how nice they were, I always felt like I was still at work!

Keep in mind though that lots of us came from countries where we had to move to where our careers took us. That could be hundreds of kilometres away, not just a short train ride like it is here.

And, combine that with the "life to work" ethos, many times our colleagues have become our friends. Where else would you meet people...and when would you find the time?



Nah...it's a symbolic thing...If you get an invite, it means you "belong", I guess. Doesn't mean we WANT to go however.

Do you? I mean, REALLY? Be honest...my Dutchie would rather floss his teeth with a chainsaw than go to a circle...

Swamp Zombie - you just aren’t getting it.

We don't think you are secretly having fun .. we know these birthday parties are dull. We've been to them with our Dutch boyfriends! Hee hee!

But they don't have to be dull. .. the culture just compels them to be so.

I think the Dutch COMPELL others to sit in some circle party out of obligation ..,., but there is no JOY to it.

When I lived in The States I always had parties and they had nothing to do with a birthday. DUH! In fact, adults did not celebrate their birthdays every year – only children do this. Hee hee!

One friend will be the DJ, and play the music, I will push back the furniture, dim the lights and people show up with a case of beer, or a bottle of wine or a pizza or whatever food and dribk just turn up. People eat drink and dance, go outside for a cigarette – and if I run into someone walking by while I am having a cigarette .. that person is invited to the party too!

That’s how you CLICK with people and make friends that can turn into a close friendship. There are no rules.

This would never happen in The NL now would it? That’s what we are talking about. The culture is too closed to ever let this happen.

Work - you don’t have to make a best friend at your job – but surely if you are in a regular work office – you will make FRIENDS with at least 1 person right? I can’t imgine that there in NO ONE in the whole building while you work there for years that you don’t like.

Well, that person and you could CLICK so you can bring at least the one person into your real life so that that person can become a close friend,.

I think the Dutch do make work friends but as Monkey Nuts already said perfectly .. they are only friends with that person while they are in that work environment … but that person can’t come out into their REAL world.

I have noticed that – they can make what I call ‘context specific’ friends ..., friend at the Sports school .. or other such places .. but they can’t take this out intro the world and put all these people together in the same room. Hee hee!

I STILL have parties, I just don’t invite the Dutch any more because you are supposed o reciprocate by throwing a party themselves …. but they never do this. They never throw parties unless they are birthday parties – but then they only invite their kring – which does not include me and they sit around in a circle being bored. Now, what kind of party of that?

Yes, if I date a guy, I will go to his friends birthday party .. but EVERY YEAR the exact same people will attend.

But my expat friends KNOW to throw a party if they are attending parties and these parties are to laugh and actually have fun. !

I could go on and on with various examples but like I said – most Dutch people don’t understand this concept – though there are exceptions - some Dutch people DO get it!

I remember my SIL trying to 'break the circle'...to no avail.

She hated these damned birthday parties so much, and most of her family was born during the same month, that she decided to throw one big party. Seating was willy nilly all over the place. She put all the food on the dining room table and told everyone to "come and get it" and hung out in the kitchen, or floated around talking to everybody, trying desparately to have a "normal" party.

Nope. Everyone who showed up moved the chairs into a circle (actually TWO circles; the old people and the young people)...and her BIL started whinging because she wasn't serving him...

I've been to housewarming parties before, so that's also an acceptable reason to hold a party here. But otherwise you just invite people to dinner, one couple at a time. Nothing spontaneous...

That is unfortunate, having everything at the table makes it so much easier for the host, for she does not have to run around and serve everybody and also allows her to enjoy the party as well.

Did she end up eating everything herself?

Lol...well, some cooperated (the younger people). But she found herself reluctantly passing stuff around and offering drinks to the older people.

The Dutchie and I got our own booze though...otherwise we would never have been served often enough to sustain the buzz necessarily to put up with the party... (kidding)