Well, I can't believe it's finally come to this - anonymously logging on to an internet forum to disparage and defame this country that's been my home on and off for over two years. The funny thing about Germany is that the longer I've stayed, the more I've come to dislike it - I always thought it would work the other way. I'd just like to see what other people's opinions are on this.

First, I'll get my alliegances out of the way - I'm 25 and a trainee doctor from the UK. I'm marrying a German girl next year and we're both moving to London. We've been together for many years. My German is far from accent-free, but I can communicate fluently. I generally enjoy my day-to-day existence here in Germany, but continuously come up against some key issues that have finally ground me down and forced me to realise that my future is not here.

Key problems:

Cultural conservatism. The root of all evil here, if you ask me. The failure to recognise talent and flexibility as more valuable, not just in today's market but in LIFE, over some pathetic double Dr. title or position gained through nepotism is ridiculous. As is the reverence Pflichterfüllung is given by every single German. The number of young people being brainwashed into this cult through unpaid Praktika in which they are ignored and abused by their superiors is staggering. These people are Germany's future. Many professionals, including thousands of doctors can't take this any more and have left. 99% of the German doctors working in England I've spoken to cite the climate at work as their reasons for leaving Germany, not money. Why is position and title so revered here (to the point that most professors act like tinpot dictators and get away with it) and experience and talent so overlooked?!

Racism: Germany is a racist country. I've had a cursory glance through these forums and there is a lot of Turk-hate going on, which reflects society in general. I work in a hospital in Berlin in which a map of the Kaiserreich hangs proudly on the Chefarzt's wall and gays, Turks and blacks are routinely and crudely joked about in the team meetings. When there are none, then the women on the team are the target of the jokes. This is unacceptable in the UK. It should be doubly unacceptable here given Germany's history. Exactly what are these Germans who protest that their "culture" is challenged by this process trying to protect?! I see few aspects of German culture that couldn't benefit from a little fresh air.

Rudeness: Germans are objectively rude. I think this stems from their inability to take criticism in any way other than personally. This manifests itself best in customer service and it is unnecessary to go into this ubiquitous tendency as it is covered well elsewhere. My own personal opinion is that this follows from a trend to interpret the world in emotional terms (and hence consider everything in reference to oneself, personally), rather than in a detached, rational manner.

Ignorance of the past: This is a controversial thesis, but I am convinced that many Germans' appreciation of their country's activities in the 1930s and 40s is severely lacking and too oriented towards Germany's experience. This leads to a lack of insight into the problems of conservatism and racism in contemporary German society. Germans are taught incessantly at school about Hitler's rise to power and the Holocaust (in Germany) and post-war history. There are two problems with this - the average German believes they know "everything" about this period while in fact they have never studied it as adults and compulsory childhood learning is necessarily simplified. The cultural taboo that exists re. discussing the war means that nothing further is learned. There seems to be an understanding that the defeat of Hitler was preordained and no realisation that a Nazi European order was only narrowly avoided in 1940 and again in 1942. No German I ever met knows that 12-20 million Soviets were killed by the Germans - a total lack of respect for their liberators. This cursory treatment of the period and a failure to address the roles of German antisemitism, racism and blood-citizenship (which continues to this day) in this catastrophe is a major problem.

Inertia: Many Germans loved it when the grand coalition was elected as it meant another few years of ostrich policy; head firmly in the sand as globalisation rolled on across the landscape. I've studied the recent health reforms and the demographic arguments for them and only one word can describe Germany's mid-term future - fucked. Couple that with virulent anti-Turkish sentiment and the obvious answer - mass immigration - is out of the window.

Bureacracy: I know it's a cliche, but standing for four hours in line at the Bürgeramt!? To be registered by the police for no reason (no need to in the UK, so why here?!) Pain in the arse. Sicherheit, Sicherheit über alles.

Anyway, there it is. I broke my arm at the weekend (horrendous experience in der Rettungstelle with incredibly rude staff and a misdiagnosis as all the competent doctors are apparently working in Norway or Dubai!) It's been good to type so much as rehab.

So there you go. As plus points go, the beer's not bad here, but better in the Czech Republic. I'm not a racist - I don't believe these problems are rooted in German genes, just in German culture. These can and should be confronted and discussed and, perhaps, if the Germans want it and have the will to break the cycle, changed.

Lots of love,

Markov

Sorry that your experience in Germany wasn't what you had hoped for.
There's alot of people in this forum who seem to feel the same as you do. I've lived in Germany off and on for about 7 yrs. It is different than my home country (USA) but I've learned to deal w/ the differences and have accepted the fact that people are people and no matter where I go, I will run into: bigotry, rudeness, bad-service people (or no service-people) and different attitudes.

Titles are important to anyone who's worked very hard to get to that point.

And the bad-taste jokes going on inside high-level offices are nothing new. I'm pretty sure what goes on inside the White House isn't all Saintly either. :wink:

I happen to like Germany. I know that this country is not perfect. There are many things that I complain about, too. But I also did some fair amount of complaining when I was in the US. And Japan.

Good luck to you, though.

I have just left Germany after 2 years. We loved our experience as a family and as individuals. Perhaps because my husband and I are in our 40s we found more widely read German friends who actually were willing to discuss politics: past and present. I did not find people to be ignorant of their history. On the contrary, I found my German friends and neighbors be quite surprised at how much we traveled while in Germany, to the various historical sites, including the Documentation Museum in Nuremberg and to several concentration camps. They were interested in discussing the various sites that we visited and quite candid about the past and about the future for the country and for their families.

Some of our friends have opted to leave the country while we have met people from other countries who have chosen to make Germany their permanant home.

I hope that you are able to come back to Germany at some point and discover the charm of the land and of the people. No country is perfect but, most have many good sides as well as areas they could improve upon. I was very sorry to leave Germany and I hope to return every year to enjoy the people, the culture and the land.

Excellent post by Markov.

One thing I would add is that Germans have a very unrealistic idea about Germany's role in the world today.

Good luck in the future.

"Bureacracy: I know it's a cliche, but standing for four hours in line at the Bürgeramt!? To be registered by the police for no reason (no need to in the UK, so why here?!) Pain in the arse. Sicherheit, Sicherheit über alles."

The main reason for registering: taxes. If the UK had continued with the poll tax, there would have been a need for registering to make it work.

By the way, the little joke at the end of this comment would be considered as extremely rude by most Germans.

I agree on the talent and flexibility bit but think of it, if people wouldn't provide they have been properly trained you might end up with incompetent people like in the UK. Every Hinz and Kunz can become supervisor in our company without having the necessary Grundausbildung. I personally rather accept someone who had a proper training and knows his/her beans. It could be however done a bit easier for germans regarding supporting talent and flexibility, though back in the time when I worked in Germany flexibility was a must anyway in ANY job.





It is a law that young apprentices have to get Ausbildungsgehalt, if they encounter problems in the company there are institutes they can contact as this is not legal, there are helplines for them too. However if it is a praktikant who is still attending school then the company is not obliged to pay, a Praktikum is done for mostly only 4 weeks, just to enable the Schueler to get an idea about the future job they might take up or not when school is finished. I used to do a couple of praktikas and am thankful because it gave me an insight on jobs I deffo wouldn't have done. As for your question about titles, again see my first quote.





I don't know what threads/posts you are refering to regarding racism, on this forum are mostly non germans bashing on auslaender and on germans. I find you are generalizing to the max by saying you had a glance and by that you find that Germany is a racist country, it.s not true and not clever. You can not tar everyone with the same brush just because some idiots comment on here they hate turks. Better get the facts right before you make such sweeping statements. Beside this website is full of trolls too in case you haven't noticed. You as an english should know how much racism is going on here in the UK. Have you heard recently about the teenagers who have been shot? They were mostly black or asian. I went on an english site a while ago and someone (an english) was utterly rude and racist about immigrants saying they should be deported right away at gunpoint he even said he would hold the gun! What's your opion about that? As for jokes about gays, indians etc. you should take your blinkers off. You will be shocked about how many jokes are being made about gay people, black people, Asian etc. they are even referred to "Pakis" by english people, quite racist isn't it? The english know it is uncalled for but that doesn't prevent them from making rude comments wrapped in the usual "sarcasm" they oh so love. Just yesterday someone sent a text with a joke about the Mac Canns daughter, I can't believe how an english can be so rude and insensitive about a family that has lost their child. And last week I read on another site someone posting a joke about Pavarotti who died last week. I find most brits can not leave things alone. Absolutely EVERYTHING has to be made a joke off. Someone told me that sarcasm is always being used to cope with the situation. I mean WTF? Why not just saying nothing instead? They are not the ones who have to deal with the suffer. No one needs constant sarcastic input. Is it because the english have trouble to show emotions hence they rather cover it up with sarcasm? I don't need to see or hear stupid sick jokes about other peoples suffering it makes my blood boil! Talking about hypocrisy eh?



That one might be partly true, I experienced positive and negative customer service in Germany and in the UK, It also depends on how to criticise a german if it's constructive fine, if it's patronizing: better put the hard helmet on *joke joke*



Sorry but the "ignorance of the past" bit is utterly bollocks, we know what history we've had and you brits are reminding us every bloody day of the war. I find it important to know about my history but I don't need smug brits or any other smug people ramming the facts of war down my throat. I might have not all the numbers in my mind about how many have been killed etc. but that is not the most important bit. What's important is to learn from this horrendous aera and try to make things better in the future.



They hoped the grand coalition would do something better than all the previous old farts in politics. Pretty much the same in the UK here. Health reforms: Some things could be better indeed but I personally think it's still better in Germany than in the UK. NHS for example is a disaster.




That's for tax reason, I find it much much worse, that people here with injuries, have to wait for hours at the A&E to get treatment. I hope I never ever have to cross the threshold of a hospital nor A&E. BTW what is your viewpoint about the MRSA bug? Isn't it horrible to know that you could easily kick the bucket by being infected with that virus in hospitals where you would think it is all sterile and clean? And why? Because it's a hygenic problem! This link is only one of so many about lacking hygiene in english hospitals. Make a google search just by putting "MRSA" in and see how many people have died already by that. Scary if you ask me.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=303&id=501012007






So there you go. As plus points go, the countryside is beautyful here, I am not a racist, I don't believe these problems are rooted in english genes, just in english culture. These can and should be confronted and discussed and, perhaps, if the english want it and have the will to breaks the cycle, changed.

Lots of love,

Maj

Oh well, you don't like Germany. Nowhere's perfect and the Germans can be nerdy and distant, but I definitely haven't encountered much racism since moving here after spending 5 years in London.

No doubt you'll be well paid as a doctor in London so you'll be able to live in a nice area, but maybe after living there a while you might see Berlin in a bit of perspective. If you're after rude people, look no further than shop assistants, most bus drivers, the tube during rush hour, London drivers, the general atmosphere on most high streets and in most pubs, I could fill several paragraphs. And if it's racism you want, head over to any east london or south east London pub and strike up a conversation with the next bloke at the bar - or better still, chat with a taxi driver about immigration - you won't be disappointed. Then there's the other nasty side to London, which is all the snobby rich people who are only too glad to pull rank on anyone who doesn't have a huge bank account or didn't go to a public school - the British class system is alive and well - at least that's something that the Germans don't really have, or at least not in Berlin.

No offence or anything and good luck in Blighty.

Markov, I think its a pity you haven't enjoyed your stay in Germany, however, by the attitude I detect in your writing maybe you didn't want to. Some of what you say is correct but an awful lot isn't and I just wonder how you will find life in London or any other part of the UK. If you can't accept differences in culture then my advice would be "Stay at home".
Maj, by your rant you just give some credence to what Markov says. I know it must be frustrating when someone blasts your country like that but it is not best to blast back at the English and tar them all with the same brush.
Anyway this is my 4th time in Germany and I find by accepting that there are differences I can get on and enjoy being a guest in what for me is a wonderful country.

I have lived in 4 countries on 3 continents as a retiree and Germany is my favorite. Originally I lived in a small town in the Odenwald and now I live on the German-Polish border. Yes, in east Germany. Admittedly, I do not look like a foreigner since my family was originally from Germany and Norway so I do not experience racism. My biggest problem is that my German is poor, unlike my father´s, and, with my appearance, I get funny looks when I say I don´t understand something.

That said, it has been my experience in all 4 countries, as well as the other countries in which I have traveled, that people will respond to you as you act towards them. If you are pleasant and polite, then they will respond accordingly. If you are rude, then you more likely get a rude or sharp response. Courtesy goes a long way in all countries and cultures, irregardless of nationality, race, ethnic background, language or other differences.

I have never been to England and it is not high on my list of priorities, although I would be interested in seeing the Chinese terra cotta soldiers´exhibit.

Since you don´t like it here, going back to England is obviously a good choice for you.

An American in EAST Germany

i think the next James Bond should be German. :twisted:

Sometimes, I think the problems is just european. I have a good life in Germany, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try in the US of A if my wife would. She could complain about the US of A.

Too bad you are not a dentist. The Brits need dentists and need to stop using Super Glue.

If you understand how frustrating it is being generalized then why giving me a lecture? BTW all my points I mentioned in my previous post are based on facts and therefore I am not taring them all with the same brush.

You're awfully kind, Maj.

(That's probably the reason that bloody Brummy cybermarried you.)

Were you less than perfect, then you would probably have told that obnoxious sod to be careful that the doorknob didn't bang him in the arse on the way out.

You are, of course, far too genteel to express such an vulgar sentiment.

:wink:

So I'll do it for you.

errr :oops:
you are so kind yourself Sir :wink:

Sorry but I don't get the negativity. One thing I've learnt here is that the grass is always greener. When I came here I talked about how good it was in Australia compared to here. Now when I visit home I say wow it's so much better in Germany!

There is no perfect country and I've visited alot of them. Just places that fit better to you than others.

I am really sorry that your experience in Germany was that bad but I can just agree to every single point you said! I just wish we could have met because frankly I'm pretty sure I'm different as I don't get along so good with most Germans - well, must be my Portuguese heritage.

After spending six truely miserable years of study in Baden-Württemberg I realized that all the clichees of Germany do have a strong point. I decided to go back to my beloved hometown Hamburg as I strongly believe that this is the only place in Germany where the people aren't German in the bad way. It is the most international place in Germany, it has been strongly influenced by Scandinavian, English and Dutch culture over centuries, you have lots of Latinos, English, Turks, Arabs, Africans, Asians, Portuguese and I've never experienced any racism here - but I did so in Berlin and in South Germany. I think the tradition of the harbor is what makes Hamburg different - and the fact that is has never been part of that horrible Preußen.

Although I'm German, my plan is to leave this country in about 5-7 years. New Zealand and Canada are my favorites today. I don't see any future for me here. The society is rolling back fast into conservatism and racism, this time not the Jews as there are none left, but the Muslims, and the government has destroyed and keeps on destroying all opportunities for my generation (I'm 30) - and I say that althoug I work in IT and do better than most of my fellows. I would never have kids in this country where soon unqualified unemployed one-Euro-jobbers will "educate" kids in kindergarden, while all the qualified, intelligent people are leaving. The conservatives always complain about imigration without telling, that since several year more people leave Germany than imigrate.

I'm sure you'll have problems and annoyances everywhere, but you pointed the most important issue for me:



This hits the nail on its head!
If you've ever been to England, USA, Canada, Scandinavia, Portugal, well, most of the world, the people are very friendly. There are three countries that aren't, from my experience: Germany, Greece and France.
But you live in Berlin, well, I think the people there are the most rude in Germany.

Anyway, good luck to you and your girl-friend!

Were you going to comment here Rudolph?

You sound pretty biased as if killing 20 million Russians is no big deal, and purposefully wiping out the intelligentsia in Poland and doing a trillion dollars in damage there is inconsequential. You are flat out wrong.

If you look at the territory that was formerly west Prussia, many of the inhabitants were actually ethnic Polish. IMHO, Germany got off pretty light by giving up east Prussia, part of Pomerania, and most of Silesia.

WWII was an aggressive war initiated by Germany by choice, not by necessity.

Unfortunately, I have encountered very little naziism in the older generations, as losing a war, surviving in the rubble with very little food, and facing war guilt and afterward rebuilding Germany has given me a lot of admiration for people born in the 30's and 40's.

Those who are born after the 40's are a different story. They would like to dismiss the crimes committed, the property looted, and genocide enacted during WWII as something for which they are not responsible while at the same time looking to reclaim territory in Poland and Czech, which is not negotiable under the two plus four treaty.

The idea of Germans as victims is a joke and anyone that believes otherwise should make a trip to Poland, the Baltics , Ukraine, and Russia to get a clearer perspective.

true!

When I live in Spain, I also had the feeling. I think people from north Europe are more polite and less rude although some may have an arrogance, but much better than some other countries.

I am from China and I lived in 3 continents. I also feel that current policies in some European countries are not so good for skilled or talented people, but better for unskilled people. I think in Spain this is obvious, but from what you said in Germany, it sounds similar.