Before coming to The Netherlands, I was told the Dutch are very friendly people, but I have read suggestions here that it is very difficult for foreigners to enter Dutch social circles. Is this true?

Does it depend on location? I am living in Hilversum and have yet to make any non-work friends, but have not made an effort yet. Should I expect difficulty? Does being an American hurt my chances? Does it help that I am rather unhappy with most Americans myself?

If I have a shot, what would be the best way to make friends in a smaller city like Hilversum?

--Kent

Hello kent,

I'm Dutch, so it's difficult for me to compare, becuase to me everything seems "normal" here. In general, like in the rest of Northern Europe, people are very keen on their own privacy here, I think.

The best thing to do is joining a sport team or so, I guess. I do not know whether you have many Dutch collegues?

Hi Kent, I don't know where you live, because I am probably right at the other side of the country. But, I HAVE made dutch friends here.
It's not that they are not friendly, but the culture is very different to the UK for me and it was nothing like I'd expected before moving here. It's actually too hard to explain..... I guess I wouldn't call them friends, instead aquaintances. In fact one of my closest friends here who is Dutch once told me that she has NO real friends and yet she is one of the most popular women in my village? she was talking honestly to me, a bit of a girl to girl happy chat thing. I was rrealy shocked because they always have massive parties with loads of guests, but she has NO friends? It's just so hard to get your head around.

I guess thats why I want to move. I never met people who are commanded by their husband to sit in a particular chair or do whatever their husband chooses. It even freaked my husband out and he is dutch himself!

The biggest reason I personally didn't make good friends here isn't because of my neighbours, but because of their husbands who sadly have their own set of rules

I'm glad my dutchy isn't like them, if he was then he'd find himself upside down in my trash bin

You simply have to live here and meet people and all people are different. When I first arrived here I had to stay with my inlaws for a few weeks and the neighbour there I got on brilliantly with. But, when I moved here it was totally different.

I wish you the best success

what you srote is very true Wouter Expect to have your closest friends in a sports club. But if something drastic happens in your life don't expect any of them to ever help you

I concur with Laureljoanna. When I first came here I enthusiastically joined various cultural groups and clubs. The members were allright and I participated in many "parties" and other meetings meant for "passing time".
However when I had the impression something like "friendship" had developed I started inviting a few of them for a meal and also expected them to do the same once in a while. I soon noticed that they didn't accept my invitation ( they always had an excuse, their "agenda" was always fully booked!) or just once and very reluctantly. They never returned an invitation to me! Now, it would be all too easy to start joking about the Dutch being too stingy to offer other people a meal! I can't believe that would be the main reason, though at least a flavour of it must be hidden in it...
I don't have an explanation covering everything but here are a few things that might be responsible for this strange behaviour of the Dutch:
1) many Dutch still can't cook a decent meal and feel embarrassed to invite people. Have you noticed how frequently Dutch p[eople order from takeaways?
2) many Dutch have an agenda booked MONTHS in advance. If one insists on meeting "impromptu" they have to shift a lot of things and they don't like...
3) many Dutch are extremely private and indivualistic. They would prefer meeting you in a restaurant (if it were not so costly!
4) most Dutch don't see eating together as an important event, certainly not as a celebration of friendship.

Well, it is hard to make Dutch friends - but this is not a Dutch issue .. it's a European issue.

I think Americans get the wrong impression of the Dutch. They can be friendly ... but that is not the same thing as becoming your 'friend'.

Hilversum is a very nice city - but it is kind of outside the hub and if you are here alone ... it can be isolating. If you are with a husband/wife it can be better. I lived near you in Amersfoort (another very nice city) for 5 years and one of the reasons I moved to De Haag was to be around more international people and events. Being American has nothing to do with all this ... the social rules are not discriminating! Hee hee!

I have friends all over Europe - Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany France etc and they ALL report the exact same thing. I understand that Italy and Spain and other point south are a bit different but I don't have any friends there so I don't know.

Everyone has their own experience ... I'm just giving you mine.

They have a social regels (rules) here that simply don't exist in The States so things may seem very strange/confusing to you. I think most of Europe is 'old world'. You make your friends (close friends) in school - and University) and you will stay within THAT circle of friends the rest of your life. They only have ONE circle of friends so if they like you ... there is no social mechanism in which to bring you into this little circle. So then you become 'kennis' (an aquiantance).

There are 2 levels - Close friend and Kennis and again, they don't have multiple social circles so that's it!

There is no other 3rd category that you are used to in the States like ... 'friend' ... at least not really.

For example, yes, you can make what we call - 'friends' within a 'social context'. Like .. if you are a guy, you can join a sports group. Within THAT group you can make 'friends' but you can never take that friendship out into the real world.

This is why the friends laurajoanna mentioned above from the sports clubs don't rally around when something goes wrong in your life. That's because they do not consider you their [close] friend. They would rally to help a close friend.

No, if you are not a close friend ... you (by default) fall into to the category of 'kennis'. Their concept of 'friend' lies on the same level as 'kennis' ... so why would they bend over backward to help an acquaintance? See what I mean. You have to redefine the meaning of the word 'friend' here.

Once again, they only have 'close friends' and 'kennis' here. There is nothing inbetween that we know of as 'friend'.

So yes, you might invite this sports friend over for a party etc .... and they might show up just the one time. (They don't know how to handle this actually.) But they will never invite you anywhere and will decline further invitations from you. So then you don't understand why you can't get any closer to that person. :/

Well, that's the way it is because they can only be friends WITHIN the social context of the sport club or whatever club you have joined - but not outside of it.

See? Completely the OPPOSITE of many other countries ... but they don't know this .. so what are you gonna do?

But ... hee hee! Women don't do sports. Sure I go to the health club to work out ... but I'M not playing football etc. Geesh, too big a risk of breaking my nails, skinning my knees, messing up my freshly done hair! etc. Hee hee!

Oh no, women socialize and 'connect' through direct eye to eye contact and conversation. Women want to be understood verbally. Guys do sports to 'connect' ... though they have also co-oped Women's lib here in such a way that they expect that women should be playing sports ... like guys do. DUH!

Sure there are exceptions. If a woman wants to play sports - fine .. I'm just saying that where I'm from (the States) most women are not rolling around in the dirt etc.. However, they ARE happy to meet for a shopping and lunch date on a Saturday so that they can .... talk.

On the other hand ... you if can get active in the Dutch international social scene in the big cities you will meet Dutch people that are a lot more open and receptive to bringing new people into their lives. This is key because they are the OPPOSITE if the average Dutch person and are hungry for new people.

The regular Dutch people however ... just stay to themselves.

Secondarily, I strongy suggest you join some expat social groups. There you will meet a zillion other expats that are in the same position and you can gradually build a social circle for yourself - and sure you might pick up a Dutch friend here or there over the years.

Wow! I'm glad I asked!

I was already planning to join a cycling club (once I get my work permit and buying a nicer bike is not such a risk). However, it was under the assumption that I would meet others, find things in common, and branch out. In the States,I too would find it a little unusual if someone invited me over just for dinner (maybe it has something to do with my age and being single), but I had hoped to find people here with whom I might share events, games, movies, travel, etc. Are those all things reserved for a "close friend" as opposed to a "kennis"?

And if the Dutch don't make new friends the same way, what is the purpose of bars? There seem to be lots of people that go in or sit just outside of bars in the evening. Is this just another thing they do with their "close friends"? Or perhaps this is another case where they make friends, but only in that social context (i.e. "bar friends")?

Already this has been quite informative, so thanks to all for their input!

--Kent

I can't really add much to what has already been said, execept to agree. I have now lived here over 10 years and have several Dutch acquaintances, but none of whom I would consider good/close friends- the closest one I came to left for Germany because he dispises his own country (lol). It's partly my problem as well - I like friendships to be natural, and with most Dutch, there is so much awkwardness due to their social rules and hangups that I find it very difficult to connect with them. Of course, in a place like the US, you can meet strangers at a record or book store and wind up going to coffee with them within 20 minutes- Europeans in general are much more guarded.

I worked in a Dutch company for a year (in Hilversum by the way), was the ONLY foreigner there, and got invited out for a drink one time and was barely spoken to - Dutchies don't mix work and private life much, which is very different from my home, where we meet lots of good friends through work and regularly went out to the pub on Fridays. I felt like a complete outcast in Hilversum, truth be told, and moved to Amsterdam even though it added 90 minutes to my commute time

I disagree slightly with ouloveit's observation that this is "oldworld" Europe-wide mentality, as I have made friendships all over Europe which do not have the hangups I encounter with the Dutch. Even when I backpacked through Europe as a youngster, the only nationality I found difficult to bond with were the Dutch. Dutch people seem much less open to conversation with strangers than other Europeans. I especially notice it on airplanes - if I sit with a Dutchie, it's usually silence - but Swedish, Danish, English, French, German, Italian - usually we can have a generic conversation about something. Not that those encounters will lead to amazing friendships, but who knows - I think it's always good to talk to new people and hear stories. Perhaps it's the Dutch need for complacency/gezelligheid, which implies a distaste for the unexpected or suprises, that keeps them shy of new encounters. Anyway, after 10 years, I STILL don't understand them

I wouldn't break my back trying to make Dutch friends just for the sake of them being Dutch. Even joining the gym, it's rare that people you see all the time there will do more than say "hoi" and "doei" to you (unless you're a hot girl they are trying to pick up by showing you some useful "tips" on the weight machines! lol)....you will probably connect more with other foreigners here as you already have the common bond of being fish out of water - I think some Dutch feel that making foreign friends is futile as they will most likely leave after a few years - and actually, it's true, most of my foreign friends have wound up leaving the NL as well

I recommend a book called "Understanding Europeans" - it's written by an American and explores the many cultural differences between America and (general) Europe - indeed, many of the observations he makes of French or Germans are things that people on these boards complain about the Dutch- and the whole issue of friendship is addressed- and he does say it is common in Europe for people to cling to their school friends and not acquire new ones. I think this is changing more now that the EU is open and more people are intermingling.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.....

Yeah I think its hard to make dutch friends but when I think about it. I think it is hard all over the world.
If you think about it your friends normally come from growing up while at school. Work colleagues rarely develop into true friendships. Once you leave, its over. So I don't think it is particular to Holland except that I feel that in the states if you want to meet people you can through clubs and associations whereas here if you join a club, your friendship ends when the game is over. It never really gets past the venue of the organization.
It is similar in France except once you become friends with a french person they will invite you to their homes and try to visit you and want to invite you to do things with them and their family. This is the same for my friends from Germany. That doesn't really happen in Holland.

Well, yeah ... some people have 'pub friends'. They are only friends in the pub.

Outside of that - people go to the pub with close friends, work co-workers and their boyfriends/girlfriends etc... just like anywhere else. But they are not gonna turn around and make friends with half the joint like in the States.

You should know .. ifyou are interested in dating .. you just can't meet a girl/guy any place like in The States (well, a little if you are in the big cities - but this is not normal!). You mostly meet someone where 'it's allowed' - like the pub.

Ask your co-workers for the popular pubs in your area to freqyent.

Guys don't have to pay for the girls drinks here either. See .. I can't abide that. I just tell them 'sure,I can pay my way .. but that means we are friends and friends don't tongue kiss and have sex .. EVER! Hee hee! I find that the guys operating on the right level - don't have a problem paying my way.

I told you - they got the womans lib thing all sc*** up over here. The women think if they buy .. they are 'liberated' hee hee! So you aren't gonna have to treat them so special if you are interested.

On the other hand - lots of expats complain about Dutch girls .. there are lots of threads about this - but that's another story!

btw, in the pub you will find also a lot of guys trying to drink away their psychological problems and/or their sadness...It's not always a merry bunch in Dutch pubs!!! That's why you wont see me much in them anymore...

Hmm I thought they drink to be liberated
but anyway guys tend to not make me pay even when I offer and we are friends just in the pub.
I think it is because I am so entertaining in the places I go to and they are showing appreciation for my making the night out so lively.

Yeah that was me who is dancing on the bench in the spotlight smoking cigarillos in your face.
I only smoke when I drink and when I smoke my attitude is hey if I am coming out smelling like smoke I might as well have contributed to it and have had a good time doing it. bahahha

quote mvn : If you think about it your friends normally come from growing up while at school

I actually have little contact with many of my school friends. The friends I have who are 'true' friends that have stuck by me are either through my work or when I have moved around in the UK. I have never had a problem making friends where I have lived until I came here, and trust me I moved about quite a bit.

When I go back to the UK, it's not going to be my mum or sis that will help me, instead it will be my friends. I guess we then have to ask what a good friend is? Mine are the ones that would put a bed out for me no matter what time of day or night and support me when and if I needed support, but I guess that works both ways and i guess thats why we are friends

To be honest the last thing you need in Holland is Dutch friend; although I have few dutch friends but most of them are colleagues and former colleagues; and I am surprised to find that even they don't have much friends. When we go out for dinner or for sports I hear them saying that they came out after a long time and would like to have such activities quite often. Seriously, dutch needs to learn social skills.

Even in the gym I don't find dutch people talking much with other guys.
As far as your thread about staring is concerned I agree with you I also noticed that behavior in few people on the street or at shopping center; although I don't see girls staring at me [may be they are shy ] rather I am quite interesting for old people and then when I stare them back with an innocent lost child look they just take their eyes off from me. I take my revenge by not replying their greeting sometimes and rather asking by charging towards them "what did you just said?" and when they look scared I say "oh ! ok Goede Morgen" with same innocent smile and walk my way.


Cheers,

Thats too much effort to do all that nonsense but my first impulse was to write why have Dutch friends when you can have enemies

very true

The last thing we want is foreigners...

Universeel I respect your thoughts on this but would you mind sharing