Well, it seems the big EU countries (ignoring what there own citizens may feel) are determined to recognise Kosovo as an independent nation/country.

I'm suprised that the UK and France - which have their own problems with separatism, have decided to recognise an illegal act as this. Others, such as Spain have chosen the common sense route.

What does Kosovo have to offer? People smuggling, drug smuggling - a new gangster state!!!

Normally I can be critical of some of Russia's policies - however those who say no are correct. There is no legal basis for this.

I mean, they were waving Albanian flags!!!

The EU should stop meddling and not recognise them in any shape or form - including a protectorate (we all no how well EU member countries operated the last time don't we...).

Recognition of a state or government is simply a recognition that such a state exists. It is a recognition of reality, not in itself a stamp of approval.

Personally I think Serbia relinquished any moral right to rule Kosovo when they allowed Serbian militias (i.e. armed street gangs) to launch a war on ethnic Albanians. So given that, it's a bit rich of you to complain that Kosovo is a gangster state.

I think you should read this:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/Kosovo2.htm

"problem-reaction-solution" Ever heard of that saying?

Good grief illuminatus, there's some bollocks talked in that piece you linked to...

"In case you have forgotten, the Serbs are the Marxist Communists. I don’t know if they deal drugs."

Serbs are marxists? Since when?



"The Kosovo Liberation Army are the Maoist Communists. They deal drugs to finance their Maoist communist schools for all the little Kosovo Albanian Moslem children. "

No, they were formed as a marxist-leninist organization in Switzerland, they have no connection with Maoism that I know of.

**

"They also bring drugs into the United States to sell to all good little American children. But according to President Clinton and NATO, these are the “good guys”. "

No the American government has long proscribed the KLA as a terrorist organization.

The Serbs are a minority population in Kosovo - about 50,000 out of 2,000,000. About 95% of the population in Kosovo is ethnic Albanian. And the ethnic Albanian Kosovars are almost 100% united behind independence from Serbia for Kosovo.

Perhaps if Serbia had behaved in a more humane manner with the ethnic Albanians during the Balkan wars people might have some sympathy for their current complaints. BUt like Purple Cow says they surrendered all moral high ground over Kosovo with their own behaviour.

If the Serbs start causing trouble again they are only going to further damage their reputation and isolate themselves ever more. Of course they're not happy about Kosovo but there was no way in the world that they could ever rule it while they are in such a minority of the population

So few people remember what really happened... one wrong leading to another even worse and so on...

Anyway, I wonder when people in a similar vain will support Basque, Corsican, Tibetan, Tamil, Darfur independence... just to name a few.

Amusing how some people regard things as illegal under international law... then ignore international law for other things.

Sad really. MM induced hypocrisy.

"Anyway, I wonder when people in a similar vain will support Basque, Corsican, Tibetan, Tamil, Darfur independence... just to name a few."

Yes, yes, yes, probably, and yes.

**

"Amusing how some people regard things as illegal under international law... then ignore international law for other things."

Does anyone understand what this sentence is supposed to mean? I can't make out what (s)he is trying to say.

**

So Jelek are you attempting to deny that serbian militias launched a series of murderous attacks on Albanian Kosovoans?

No, Serbian milities did launch attacks on Albanian Kosovans. The initial attacks and goading were done by Albanian Kosovans (with heavy outside help) seeking to provoke a reaction. One wrong leading to another wrong and so on... there is no "right" side in the Balkans. All have committed horrible acts - just that the perpetrators of some are vilified, while others are brushed under the carpet.

Regarding the sentence you querried. It makes perfect sense. People selectively enforce laws based on their own prejudices. Kosovo's declaration of independence is illegal under international law.

- The Serbs treated the ethnic Albanians with vicious cruelty and savagery during the Balkan conflict. They may pretend it was in some way justified but that's because Serbia has never really explored their own behaviour and crimes during the conflict.

- 95% of Kosovo is ethnic Albanian. 95% of Kosovo want independence.

- Kosovo effectively ceased to be part of Serbia when the UN assumed control of it.

- Serbia has been campaigning to join the EU. If they want to avoid economic isolation and collapse they need to deal with reality. Launching another conflict will set economic progress in Serbia back another 20 years. And it will be entirely their own fault for refusing to deal with reality.

- Montenegro (another Slavic nation) declared independence from Serbia also recently. Notice a pattern emerging? Why don't people want to be governed by Serbia? How deeply has Serbia analyse its own behaviour when it comes to other groups?

It really is difficult to feel any sympathy for the Serbian point of view

Jelek, neither the original sentence I queried or your subsequent explanation of it make any kind of sense. I've still no clue what you are trying to say there.

"Amusing how some people regard things as illegal under international law... then ignore international law for other things."


During the war in the Balkans, one of the arguments used to justify the NATO attack was that Serbian actions were against international law. This issued was pressed by the British, French and Germans.

The legal basis was weak to non-existant, as can be seen in UK government meetings where the legal advisor on international law frequently criticised Blair's plans as illegal.

The Serbian government had full legal right to act as they did - whether it was right or wrong is irrelevant (if it was relevant then outside troops would be in Chechnya and Sudan to name just two places).

The EU then supported the NATO air strikes on Serbia - in of itself a failure, since Serbia only backed down when NATO changed it's demands to what was originally suggested by Russia.

An act not covered by international law, was deemed illegal as justification for an illegal air strike by foreign powers on a sovereign country. If it was legal, then the UN Security Council would of authorised NATO to undertake action - which they didn't. No resolution authorising or delegating force was ever made.

Now, following a unilateral declaration of independence - an act illegal under international law - it is conveniently ignored.

Just shows what a farce international law is and will remain.

Does that sufficiently explain it?

Right or wrong does not factor in to legal interpretations of actions by sovereign states. If it did, then the oh so moral British, French and German governments would be involved in many more "peacekeeping /peacemaking" missions.

Firstly, you should spend more time working on your English grammar to ensure miss-understandings such as this don't re-occur.

Secondly I neither know nor care if the declaration of independence is legal or not. What is obvious to me is that the Balkanization of the Balkans represents the best hope for long-term peace. There has been trouble between Kosovo and Serbia since 1912, and there always will be as long as Serbia continues to impose itself on the Albanians.

In the final analysis Serbia only have themselves to blame for this mess. It was Milsosevic's idiotic unilateral decision to return Kosovo's autonomy to pre 1963 levels that caused the rise in Albanian nationalism amongst Kosovoans in the first place.

Agreed.

It's tough on Serbia but they need to face reality - Kosovo is gone. Their best hope is to be reasonable and do a land deal with Kosovo so Mitrovica can rejoin Serbia.

If they can't or won't accept that then they will be a lot worse off in the long run.

I am not sure what you mean trouble between Serbia and Kosovo. It is as if you would say trouble between United Kingdom and England, Or Germany and Bavaria, etc. Did you not know that Kosovo was always part of Serbia? Have you heard about ethnic cleansing of Serbs during and after the WWII I (Serbs fought Germans in both WWI and WWII, while the ALbanians sided with them). And boming in 1999 which was triggered by Serbia not wanting to be occupied by NATO (read about Ramboulliet agreement, find fine print in the proposal). And if there was an issue in Kosovo, why would it be necessary to bomb the whole of Serbia, even cities 500 kn north of Kosovo, why would it be necessary to kill a 3 year old child or small bridge in Central Serbia Sunday morning which was used by the people to go to the market and not by military, why it is necessary to humilliate the whole nation? Which country would tolerate secession? Why nobody dares to recognize Tibet or Taiwan? Shouldn't there be a universal criteria for creating of new countries by separation? And is UN becoming another League of Nations like before WWII? How many times USA blocked security council? And now they want to bypass it?

To understand Kosovo conflict you have to understand historical context. I don't there is a grammer issue here.

Another litany of lies and half-truths here.

The fact remains that Marshall Tito gave Kosovo semi-autonomous status in 1963.

Milosovic summarily took that status away from them without consultation, an aggressive and repressive act that triggered this conflict.

That's all the 'historical context' you need.

Marshal (with one "l") Josip Broz was a very cruel dictator, that gave something he did not have right to. And he gave autonomy, not republic. Albanians never wanted autonomy, only republic. That is why they expelled most of the non-Albanian population from Kosovo and Metohija. Now they are claiming the territory. If they succeed that would mean that violence pays out. They did not want to compromise when Serbia offered broad autonomy. The role of USA in all of this is extremely negative, because they did not offer neutral mediation; they rather sided with one side in conflict. Milosevic is gone, 8 years already Serbia is democratic now (more than some other "democratic" countries). So reason for separation ("amputation" is long gone).

For your information Marshal Josip Broz was running concentration camp Goli Otok many people were imprisoned there because of different opinion. They were doing very hard labor there, many of them died. This was not the only camp, but was the most famous one.

He was also running secret police UDBAwhich was involved in much elimination and kidnappings. It also kept population in check. He paved the way for all of separatists in Yugoslavia.
You can also see what Albanians did in 2004, this was just one example:
Burning Church

I think this one is the eye opener.

How many of you actually took the time to look at HOW BIG Kosovo is on the map ?

it is 60 kilometers by 60 kilometers.

Way to small to mean anything. So it will in time get split up into an Albanian part that will join Albania and a Serbian part that will join Serbia. So this has just been a form of land grab supported by the USA. Who organised, financed, trained and delivered weapons to these Albanian maffiaclans.

Anyhow, these stupid fools have the same faith as Turks on the occupied part of Cyprus => poverty and becoming the cheap labor for the Greeks, in this case Serbs.



I love these stupid people. Makes life fun. To watch them mess around and be fooled by the Americans.

The "historical context" of Kosovo that we never should forget is simply that it is the core ( "HEART LAND" if you want) of Serbia and the place where their famous battle against the invading Turks in 1389 was fought.
It is soooooo easy for "outsiders" to tell other people they should give up and move on! They don't feel the pain when their heart is ripped out of their body! Another example: it's so easy for all of us to solve the problems between Israel and Palestina...How come they are still fighting after sixty years? I could give other examples...
I would plead for more understanding and more dialogue with a "good" European nation, absolutely willing to join the Union.

Maybe they can send in the Dutch army to guard someone... like the Serbs this time.

The "elite" Air Mobile Brigade Special Forces did such a wonderful job before didn't they... and it was Dutch General Couzy who down played it all. Will they be drunk again?