Well it's almost Dec 25th. Okay not so big an event here as it is in some countries. But getting back to the essence, what do you think about the Nativity story? Besides the obvious things like Jesus was not born on Dec 25th and we don't know there were 3 wise men, they didn't come the same time as the shepherds and so on.....

It is the day when most of the Chrstian world celebrates the event fortold by ancient prophets. Yes there were wise men and shepherds.

It's a Bible story.

The Bible was a work of fiction written by hundreds of people over hundreds of years and only compiled into the modern day bible which we know and hate about 1000 years ago.

it is a work of fiction. Anyone who bases their belief systems on works of fiction eg Christians;' Jews; Muslims; Scientologists etc are very stupid people.

And notice that the most hateful and intolerant religions are the ones which have a 'holy book'

I have no problem with people living their lives using works of fiction as their guide but notice how these people actively campaign to deny EVERYONE rights eg look at how universally evil organised religion is when it comes to gay rights or abortion rights.

Clearly my question about the nativity has touched on some other issues that are very important to you. Yes there have been and are some very wrong things done in the name of religion. But I am not sure that it helps to then dismiss the whole world view of a religious faith as hateful and intolerant. Atheistic thinking led to genocidal atrocities under Hitler, Stalin and in Cambodia for example. But it would be unfair to therefore label atheistic thinking as inherently hateful and intolerant, wouldn't it?
Also we are going to be coming from different points of view but what evidence is there that the Bible was really composed by 100s of people for example? And why would you say it is a work of fiction? It covers such a vast array of life, is it the core idea of there being a God that you see as being fictional?
I am a Christian (may be even 'worse' than that - I head up the leadership team of an international church) Publically in this thread I want to say that it is absolutely awful the way that some express their disagreement with say abortion or a gay/lesbian lifestyle. To disagree with say a gay lifestyle and discuss this in a reasoned manner is not I believe homophobic but the way that some people come across clearly can be. For that I am unreservedly sorry as someone who is actively identified with the Christian church.
I didn't realise that a question about the nativity would lead to this but it is good to be real. I do not think that the point of the Christmas story is supposed to wrapped up in cotton wool just for December, it has to connect with the realities of life issues such as you write about.

There is at least one very important question surrounding Nativity.

Was Jesus really born, I mean, did he really exist or did he only lived in the imagination of his first followers? There is not even a shard of historical proof! Some historians ( and not the lesser ones) think Jesus is for the major part a construction by the shrewd Paul of Tarsos (St Paul). The first to write a "biography" of Jesus was Mark the Evangelist, about 60 years after his presumed death. An Italian historian has written a very interesting study and book about Jesus Christ (= JC) being in fact Julius Caesar (= JC)! Please don't laugh, it's really very well documented.

Jesus is just a comic character for me!!!

Cheers,

Well it seems that the moment has passed to really reply - I haven't got onto expatica so much recently.
Not a 'shard of historical proof' that Jesus existed? I think that is pushing the 'history of history' a bit far!!
Of course, it is another matter to state that Jesus was more than just a religious teacher for example or that He rose from the dead (both of which I also confess I believe)
As to Him being a comic character as with the last posting. What like Superman or the latest Jenga character? (having said that there is a Jenga Bible now - don't know if it is any good, would have to leave that judgment to Jenga fans!!)
Well the realities of eating calls so I sign off.

Jesus was a Hippy.

Yes nobody knows where he spent few years of his life initially....

Cheers,

There are/were many non-partisan scholars who believed Jesus existed, although his simple existence proves nothing regarding his divinity.

The person named Apollonius of Tyana who fits every description of this Christ figure, may well be to whom the "stories" in the bible refer. He claimed to be the son of God, claimed to perform miracles, was killed, and his disciples claimed he was resurrected.

It was certain that he existed. So two issues arise... 1) If he was in fact this Jesus person, it lays waste to centuries of church doctrine, and 2) if he was not Jesus, but another person, then it goes to show that the claims Jesus forwarded were nothing special. They were simply copied from another place, and were later copied by others.

As an atheist, I DO actually believe that Jesus (Yeshu ben Patera?) WAS a real person, as there are plenty of historical references in the couple of centuries after his death pinpointing his existence. However, whether he was the David Blain or Uri Geller of his era, or as Christians would have us believe, the son of a "god" is a matter of conjecture.

I have actually heard a few theories from religious historians/scholars that he may have been the bastard son of a Roman centurion (his name has been documented, although it escapes me at present) who raped Mary, a 12 year old Jewish peasant. In light of the fact that an unmarried pregnant Jewish woman/girl would likely be stoned to death, irrespective of the background to her pregnancy - 2000 years later, similarities can be drawn to Saudia Arabia, etc. on the self-same subject - Joseph, an older man, and friend of the family agreed to marry her as a 'smokescreen' to avoid any retribution against Mary.

Interesting theories. Theories which will, no doubt, cast me into the eternal pits of hellfire and damnation, but at least I'll neither be cold nor lonely methinks!

I'll be there to discuss with you the respective merits of Celtic and Rangers and the fabulous Burrell's Collection.

It'll be a bit of a monologue then, as I have ZERO interest in football and have never visited the Burrell Collection. Now, should you wish to discuss the life and work of Charles Rennie Mackintosh (1868-1928), or, alternatively, discuss Formula One we'll talk for a hellish eternity ...

Okay for Mackintosh, a true genius! We might proceed from there to the Cogels Osylei in Antwerp and the Maison Horta in Brussels...

You talk in absolutes commotion: When you say "these people" this and that, it implies the absolute that all religious people are solely motivated through their religion to suppress gay and abortion rights. You have the mindset of a fundamentalist. All or nothing, black & white, us versus them.

I believe that religious beliefs can be a problem. Some beliefs are a very serious problem. But I am not prepared to accept any generalizations regarding people. If we aren't prepared to accept that the majority of people in any mainstream culture want to live good and peaceful lives, then there is a real danger that we become that which we condemn.

Yes, of course...no generalisations...how noble! That's why the "majority of people in any mainstream culture"(your words) constantly go to war because they are right and the enemy is wrong...and does not allow them to live good and peaceful lives! May I simply object that you make sweeping generalisations too?

You can object all you want, but I'm still right.

Of course...and me too! Shall we go to war for that? I would not but you always will like you have always proven in the past!

Sorry, but I'm not falling for your bait.

If you're in search of a fight, look elsewhere mate.

I am gay. Organised religion has been 100% hateful and intolerant towards me. What I find particularly evil about the christian cults is their pathetic attempt to appear less facist than the Muslim cults with their vile 'Love the sinner, hate the sin' mantra. At least the islamic cult doesn't try to sugarcoat their hatred and intolerance.



Surely you don't believe that it was written by some 'god'.



I disagree. It is not possible to disagree with homosexuality in a reasoned manner when it is religion which forms the basis of the disagreement.